GT-F vs GTS LSA

[Sioso]

http://www.drive.com.au/new-car-comp...626-zskvh.html

Since the first Falcon GT raced across the top of Mount Panorama Ford was on to a winner. At its debut Bathurst race in 1967 the iconic XR Falcon GT stormed to victory in what was then a 500-mile enduro but is now a 1000km sprint that is Australia’s most famous motor race.

Back then, the 4.7-litre V8 in the road-going Falcon GT heralded the arrival of the Australian muscle car, kick-starting half a century of heated bar room discussions, thousands of backyard tuners, racers and the classic Ford-versus-Holden rivalry that still beats strongly today.

Fast forward to 2014 and the tweaking, tuning and updating has culminated in the best of the breed. In the blue corner is Ford Performance Vehicles’ Falcon GT F. In the red corner it’s the mighty Holden Special Vehicles' GTS.

Each is the most powerful from their respective manufacturer – and, while they're not direct rivals, they are the two fastest cars Australia has produced.

For Ford it’s the last of the GT breed. The supercharged V8 has been tweaked to produce 351kW of power, more than double the 168kW of the original. It's a modest 5 per cent increase over the same engine that’s been around since 2010, but the power number tugs at the heartstrings of the Ford faithful, mimicking the cubic capacity of the legendary 5.8-litre V8.

Throw in unique stripes, black detailing (wheels, door handles and rear spoiler) and it gives the final version of the GT (hence the F) more visual clout. It’s topped off by a 351 badge just behind each front wheel, arguably the most unique and cherished component on the last of a legend.

Inside, too, the designers have had their say, with “GT Orange” highlights in the instrument cluster, lashings of orange stitching and the all-important numbered plaque that stipulates the build number of the car (just 500 GT Fs are being sold in Australia, with another 50 for New Zealand).

At $77,900 the GT F is almost 20 times the price of the $3890 XR GT from 1967. But a neat version of those originals can now approach the price of the new model, while the later GTHO models have previously sold at auction for about $1 million.

Little wonder buyers are queuing to own a GT F, the fullstop in the history of the most iconic Australian muscle car. Demand has meant some owners will pay up to $110,000 once the car is registered – and the dealer banks a tidy profit.

The dream is that one day those cars will be worth much more, although market forces will dictate that. Yet many believe the GT F could follow the traditional path of depreciating rather than getting better with age.

For Ford (or the soon-to-go FPV brand) it’s all about the occasion rather than the drive, because the GT F isn’t markedly different from what’s come before. And it's a long way from the born-again GTHO that FPV promised years ago.

It starts with the frustrating starting procedure, which requires you to turn a key with your right hand before pressing a button in the centre stack with your left hand. The whole push button start thing was fairly new when Ford first put it in the GT, but they’re now commonplace and the double movement is thorougly noughties.

The FPV also doesn’t feel wildly different to drive from the Falcon GTs that have been around for years, either. The supercharged V8 may be more powerful, but we’re talking degrees. The V8’s generous 570Nm gives a potent shove and ensures brilliant acceleration in the middle gears.

There’s 351kW of power, although FPV engineers admit that’s a conservative figure and that in the right conditions – cool weather, for example – it can produce up to 404kW.

It’s a shame the clutch still lacks bite and the gearbox is notchy; while the purists are gravitating towards the traditional manual it’s the automatic that is the pick – in performance and its effortless nature – with the GT.

The biggest change with the GT F is the rear tyres, which are 275mm wide – 30mm wider than those up front. The extra Dunlop rubber helps contain the V8 grunt, although you still don’t have to try hard to overstep the limits of adhesion. Even modest throttle in first gear will have the traction control working overtime to save from smoking the rear tyres.

It’s second, third and fourth gears that are most useful, with a delicious surge of torque that makes light work of hills. Around Mount Panorama – limited to 60km/h during our drive – the GT F powers comfortably out of the slow third gear corner at The Cutting. A quick shift to fourth and it shows no signs of slowing as it crests the most famous hill in Australian motorsport.

But there’s the trademark supercharger whine that tends towards overpowering the V8 burble that’s been muted inside the cabin.

Performance is solid and there’s little doubt the GT F is the fastest Falcon ever. Our performance testing resulted in a best 0-100km/h time of 5.1 seconds. Opt for the automatic and you can expect to shave half a second off that.

On the road it’s only the purists who notice the subtle visual changes to the GT F, including the return of a roof-mounted aerial that will be used on the updated Falcon due later this year. Those who did spot it, though, were keen to crawl over the car or take pictures with their phones; it’s clear the lure of the GT badge still shines strongly – and will for years.

The least impressive part of the GT is inside, where the presentation feels dated and too much like a garden-variety Falcon. Sure, that’s where the heritage of the GT lies, but these days buyers expect more when they’re paying close to $100k.

From HSV, the GTS is the most powerful produced by the Holden performance partner. Its 6.2-litre V8 required massive engineering work to coax into the Commodore body, even requiring a unique differential and some innovative cooling solutions.

Unlike the Ford, though, the HSV is an ongoing model without the end-of-the-line exclusivity of the Ford. But don’t expect wholesale changes before this model is killed off when the Commodore dies in 2017. It’s the pinnacle of Australian muscle cars – and the peak output isn’t likely to climb much higher.

The GTS is also more expensive, priced from $94,490, but brings plenty more fruit, inside and out. As well as the spoiler kit there are unique tail lights and black-finished wing mirrors. There’s also a wider mouth to suck more air in and cool things down.

But it’s inside where the GTS makes its biggest visual statement. Unique instruments and detailing create a special cabin, albeit with plenty of Commodore familiarities that will have the Europhiles sneering (don’t tell them theirs is used as a taxi in Germany too...).

HSV has also injected plenty of technology into its flagship, much of it courtesy of donor company Holden. Doors that unlock when you grab the handles, a head-up display, blind-spot warning system and self-parking system all add luxury panache.

But it’s the muscle that cements the GTS as the brutal performance machine it is. A hefty 430kW of power is backed up by an even more impressive 740Nm, with the bulk of the latter arriving in the meat of the middle rev range.

Performance is tantalising close to the best in the world; 0-100km/h took 4.2 seconds during our testing, hindered only by wheelspin once you tramp the accelerator.

It’s a fantastic engine and one that suits the character of the GTS. The exhaust sound isn’t as obnoxious as a V8 can be, but it’s suitably purposeful, especially once the sports mode is selected through the Driver Select system, which also tweaks the tuning of the traction/stability control, steering and suspension. For the ultimate in traction under hard acceleration there’s also a torque vectoring mode that diverts more power to the outside wheel.

Indeed the GTS is an impressive device once twists and turns enter the equation. While the steering lacks the pinpoint agility of smaller, lighter cars (at almost 1.9 tonnes it’s a heavy car) it’s compensated by superb grip and a poise few large sedans can match. Throw in excellent brakes and it makes for a fast, fun and practical vehicle.

It’s a potent mix of raw grunt, ability and relevant technology that makes the GTS the undisputed Australian muscle car king.

Not that many GT F owners will likely mind. The reality is some will barely turn a wheel, with many owners likely to stick them in a garage for their historical significance, with others hopefully the wheels of commerce turn fast enough to bank a tidy profit.

It may be the end of an era, but it’s going out with a B-I-G bang.
Blast from the past

Our last drive of an FPV also included a reunion with the car that started the GT legend. The National Motor Racing Museum on the edge of Mount Panorama wheeled out the dark green XR GT driven to victory in the Gallaher 500 in 1967 by Harry Firth and Fred Gibson.

The XR GT model has been rebuilt since its historic win but is still a nearly 50-year blast into the past.

Unlike today’s V8 Supercars, the Bathurst stars of decades ago were road-going models and the one we drove is still registered.

As well as basic livery it has none of the staples expected in a modern race car; there’s no roll cage and flat, unsupportive seats. The steering wheel – with its historic red, white and blue “Falcon GT” badge – looks set to stab you if you were to make a mistake.

While our drive was at the road legal 60km/h limit, it was enough to realise that the drivers would have had their hands full. Vague steering and lacklustre brakes would have kept the eyelids wide apart at 200km/h-plus.

The GT makes all the right noises, though, and uses its now modest 168kW of power to good effect, albeit through an at times temperamental four-speed manual gearbox.
2020 vision

By the end of 2017 buyers will have to get used to roads without an Australian muscle car. Ford will cease building cars here by 2016 and Holden a year later.

But it won’t mean the end of muscle cars altogether. Chrysler already sells its 300C and Ford will from 2015 reintroduce the Mustang to Australia, albeit with a four-cylinder engine as the entry-level model (there will also be a V8).

Whereas Ford has committed to shelving the FPV name and, with it, the iconic Falcon GT badge, HSV is knee deep in its post-Australian manufacturing plans. The small but passionate company in Melbourne’s south-eastern suburbs is confident it has a prosperous future once the Holden production line stops.

General Motors is understood to be working on at least two large cars moving forward.

One would take on the Toyota Camry, with a front-wheel-drive layout and the choice of four-cylinder or hybrid propulsion.

The other, more top secret version, is expected to replace the Australian-built Chevrolet SS in the United States and give Holden a rear-drive V8 that will fill the void left by locally produced models. With V8s now accounting for 37 per cent of Commodore sales – that’s about 1000 V8-powered Commodores a month – it’s a significant chunk of the market Holden would still be able to cater for.

The creation of a unique V8 high-performance sedan – the basic architecture of which would underpin other vehicles, such as the Chevrolet Camaro – would also give HSV the vehicle it needs to continue delivering a locally tweaked muscle car that delivers a more affordable alternative to European rivals.

[FGX-351]

I stopped reading at "5.1 seconds".

[Sorted]

Here is what Peter Mckay from Drive got for a MANUAL FPV GT Rspec
http://www.drive.com.au/new-car-comp...012-27gd4.html

Price: $76,990
Engine: 5.0-litre supercharged V8
Power: 335kW at 5750rpm
Torque: 570Nm at 2200rpm-5500rpm
Transmission: 6-sp manual
Weight: 1862kg
Fuel use: 13.6L/100km
Wheels: 19 x 8-inch (f), 19 x 9-inch (r)
Tyres: Dunlop Sports Maxx 275/35 (f), 275/35 (r)
0 to 60km/h: 2.8 seconds
0 to 100km/h: 5.6 seconds (manual)

vs Toby Hagon from Drive and a MANUAL FPV GT GTF
Price: $77,900, plus on-road and dealer costs
Engine: 5.0-litre supercharged V8
Power: 351kW at 6000rpm
Torque: 570Nm at 2500-5500rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Fuel use: 13.7L/100km
0-100km/h: 5.1 seconds (manual)
0-400m: 13.1 seconds (manual)
Speed at 400m: 184km/h (manual)

[fgpsi]

There's also a Dowling HSV fanboy article in the Herald Sun today. He got 4.9 in the GT-F and 4.5 in the GTS

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by fgpsi

There's also a Dowling HSV fanboy article in the Herald Sun today. He got 4.9 in the GT-F and 4.5 in the GTS

Interesting how he said the GTS was faster but the GT-F "feels more secure on the road and handles better"

[_Ben]

Granny shifting, not double clutching like he should...

[XWGT]

He's claiming to have gotten 4.2 from the HSV?

[fgpsi]

Are these blokes on the HSV payroll ?

[futura]

Not sure what to make out with this Comparison. where is the video evidence of the two cars going down the quarter mile?

Again mismatched gearbox test, Manual (GTF) vs Auto (GTS)

was launch controlled used in the GTF on the 0-100km/h test??

so many questions, without to many answers.

[Rob 351]

Meh, Wheels got 4.5 out of a manual Rspec! Give the GTF to someone who can drive please!

[xr6tjet]

This was such a HSV biased thing to watch I wanted to vomit.

[Wretched]

I didn't see anything wrong with the review. Seemed fair to me.
I am a bit over these 0-100km/h tests as being the be all and end all of cars. I mean really the amount of engineering car makers put into chassis and suspension development seems wasted on comparing such meaningless test. I would much rather see circuit times. This tests all the capabilities of the car, power, suspension, brakes, steering, balance, etc.
Then we'll see what a properly set up car can do.

[Nova 8]

Seemed perfectly fair to me as well. It's not their fault the VF is newer and has more kit.

Both cars look stunning and I would be happy with either of them, truely great examples of the Australian motor industry at its best.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I am a bit over these 0-100km/h tests as being the be all and end all of cars. I mean really the amount of engineering car makers put into chassis and .

Agreed, all a 0-100 takes to be different too is a change in temp, driver, practice etc etc...

[outback_ute]

From the Carsguide test

For those interested in bragging rights, the HSV GTS automatic can reach the speed limit in 4.5 seconds while best we've seen from a Ford Falcon GT-F automatic is 4.9 seconds.

A gap of 0.4 seconds may not sound like much to the uninitiated, but in the car world this is an age.

Why did we compare the times of the automatics? The manual versions might be more fun to drive, but they're slower because you lose crucial fractions of a second when changing gears.

You will read faster times for these cars elsewhere (the HSV GTS has previously done a 4.2 second dash in the hands of others) but those times were done on a drag strip which is sprayed with goo on the start line so the cars can get better traction. We test in normal (albeit closed) road conditions.

Note the Drive article says that both cars times were recorded "in our testing", I doubt there were any tests done with the GT F at Bathurst. Maybe at the earlier tests/rides at the proving ground? They should be honest enough to say the times weren't recorded at the same time or on the same track if that applies.

Wretched I agree with you - especially for cars like these. How may laps can they do before the brakes overheat? Not to mention other things like power steering systems...

[futura]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

From the Carsguide test



Note the Drive article says that both cars times were recorded "in our testing", I doubt there were any tests done with the GT F at Bathurst. Maybe at the earlier tests/rides at the proving ground? They should be honest enough to say the times weren't recorded at the same time or on the same track if that applies.

Wretched I agree with you - especially for cars like these. How may laps can they do before the brakes overheat? Not to mention other things like power steering systems...

Again, another article not comparing the two cars at the same time under the same conditions.

Take the two cars down to western Sydney drag strip, auto GTF vs auto GTS then see won wins the battle. Im sick of tired hearing the word "as tested" on another day.

This unfair comparisons are no doubt is destroying our GTF image. Ford have put some much into this last GT and its a real shame people like Joshua and co are doing anything in there power to underline this car!

[fgpsi]

Originally Posted by futura

Take the two cars down to western Sydney drag strip, auto GTF vs auto GTS then see won wins the battle.

Why would you take it to NSW? They're both Victorian cars. Calder FTW

:p

[futura]

Originally Posted by fgpsi

Why would you take it to NSW? They're both Victorian cars. Calder FTW

:p

well, the GTF-001 car was up in Bathurst right? The last time i have checked the map of Australia, Eastern creek is a hell of a lot closer than Calder. why would you drive down to Calder to make the drag strip comparison dude?

[fgpsi]

Originally Posted by futura

well, the cars GTF-001 car was up in Bathurst right? The last time i have checked the map of Australia, Eastern creek is a hell of a lot closer than Calder. why would you drive down to Calder to make the drag strip comparison dude?

Just having a lend

[GTBenny]

Makes me angry just reading the ***** that they write.

Benny.

[chrisandsharon]

Bathurst is coming up, rumour has it that 3 laps will be dedicated to these 2 long time rivals so they can battle it out one last time.......1 warm up and 2 flat out.

I'll be there and would be great to see. Even better if they throw the F6 into the mix for the F6 fans as a last hoorah.

What will be will be but my money would be on the GTS if I had to lay the cash down.

Entertaining would be an understatement and would be talked about for years!

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

Bathurst is coming up, rumour has it that 3 laps will be dedicated to these 2 long time rivals so they can battle it out one last time.......1 warm up and 2 flat out.

I'll be there and would be great to see. Even better if they throw the F6 into the mix for the F6 fans as a last hoorah.

What will be will be but my money would be on the GTS if I had to lay the cash down.

Entertaining would be an understatement and would be talked about for years!

Rumour also has it that it isn't GTS VS GT, it is the new XR8 vs Clubby R8. And that it will be Dick Johnson VS Skaifey. And that they will make it rain on the second lap and at the finish line Clive Palmer will give the winner enough money to keep producing cars to 2020.

[chrisandsharon]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Rumour also has it that it isn't GTS VS GT, it is the new XR8 vs Clubby R8. And that it will be Dick Johnson VS Skaifey. And that they will make it rain on the second lap and at the finish line Clive Palmer will give the winner enough money to keep producing cars to 2020.

No waaaaaay

[futura]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

No waaaaaay

John Bowe will be faster

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

Bathurst is coming up, rumour has it that 3 laps will be dedicated to these 2 long time rivals so they can battle it out one last time.......1 warm up and 2 flat out.

I'll be there and would be great to see. Even better if they throw the F6 into the mix for the F6 fans as a last hoorah.

What will be will be but my money would be on the GTS if I had to lay the cash down.

Entertaining would be an understatement and would be talked about for years!

This will be a great watch if true and even better if they put the F6 and say an R8 in the mix. My money would be on the GTS also

[graphicgoose]

Sorry Nova, but I have to disagree with you. I know looks can be a personal thing...but the GTS has WAYYYYY too much going on. It's too busy and the back looks like a basterdized love child of a mazda. Sure, it's the more technologically advanced car and it's newer...but I, personally, don't think I'd ever be completely stoked looking at is as I walked up to get into it everyday...

[Road_Warrior]

I can see the appeal of the GTS. In it's own right, it is a great car.

But it's still not a GT

[Nova 8]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

Sorry Nova, but I have to disagree with you. I know looks can be a personal thing...but the GTS has WAYYYYY too much going on. It's too busy and the back looks like a basterdized love child of a mazda. Sure, it's the more technologically advanced car and it's newer...but I, personally, don't think I'd ever be completely stoked looking at is as I walked up to get into it everyday...

That's totally true, I've never liked the fpv panda eye crap on falcons. Its looks like they have sleep in their eyes and someone needs to wipe them clean like one of those gross dogs. Always preferred the fg in a single colour, such class.

[futura]

This is what we all want to see..Drive.com.au do a GTF vs GTS comparison on the drag strip. same day, same conditions as well same gearbox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uI-lMwxr7k

[rancidpunx]

This doesn't surprise me. Don't expect any wins for Ford against HSV in the press. The Wheels RSpec write up had the FPV faster to 100, faster down the quarter and faster round the track but the HSV is a better "package" apparently so took the win. The GTF is not going to go down in history as anything special when it comes to the written word unfortunately other than its the last one. Readers are 10x time more likely to favour the red team so makes sense to please those guys than the minority. Its well documented that the power at the wheels for the Coyote and LSA is in favour on average for the Ford but yet nothing is ever written about that.