Finally some common sense suggestions re: fatal accidents

[davocol]

It is sad to see that it takes a multiple fatality accident for some decent suggestions to come forward regarding road safety, it is much better than the normal speed kills and high powered cars kill drivel that we are commonly subjected to. I remember this accident well because the initial knee jerk reaction was putting bans on L platers for high powered cars.

The below article does not mention the findings but in summary the reccomendations have been to 1. Encourage car manufacturers to make stability control, ABS and traction control standard on new vehicles 2. Place a one passenger restriction on L Plate drivers 3. Vic Roads to do a study on the effects of fatigue on learner drivers

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...5E2862,00.html

For the record there was no suggestion by the coroner that the vehicles power was a contributing factor in this accident. Unfortunately the media has passed the buck straight to the car manufacturers whereas I believe this is an area the government should also be responsible for. The coroner also suggested with that these added safety features as standard an estimated 40% of fatalities could be avoided, this does seem fairly high to me but even 20% would be a fantastic inroad.

Its great how the "experts" still talk about power restrictions despite the facts:
A. A stock clubsport can't spin wheels at 100 or 110km/h.
B. The fact that it was a powerfull car didn't cause the accident.
C. The exact same thing would have happend in a v6 commodore.

Almost all cars can go fast enought to kill the driver, even a Skoda!

Question, how many time have you seen professional drivers come unstuck?
Answer, Almost every race.

Now these drivers live and breathe driving, they make a living out punting cars at high speeds around purpose designed race tracks, in cars designed to out brake, out steer and out accelerate everything on the road.

Now look at any forum, for any car, 90% of the time the quest is for more power and more speed with greater acceleration, few of these cars will ever see a race track or dragstrip.

WHY ?

EGO - YOURS

Now forget the dead.

Each year in Australia there are:
• over 600,000 reported road crashes;
• over 200,000 reported injuries; and
• 22,000 serious injuries requiring long-term care and treatment.

Driving a wheelchair for the rest of your life is NOT a cool way to get into electric transport.

Regards Prof. Rabbit

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Its great how the "experts" still talk about power restrictions despite the facts:
A. A stock clubsport can't spin wheels at 100 or 110km/h.
B. The fact that it was a powerfull car didn't cause the accident.
C. The exact same thing would have happend in a v6 commodore.

Originally Posted by prabbit

Almost all cars can go fast enought to kill the driver, even a Skoda!

Question, how many time have you seen professional drivers come unstuck?
Answer, Almost every race.

Now these drivers live and breathe driving, they make a living out punting cars at high speeds around purpose designed race tracks, in cars designed to out brake, out steer and out accelerate everything on the road.

Now look at any forum, for any car, 90% of the time the quest is for more power and more speed with greater acceleration, few of these cars will ever see a race track or dragstrip.

WHY ?

EGO - YOURS

Now forget the dead.

Each year in Australia there are:
• over 600,000 reported road crashes;
• over 200,000 reported injuries; and
• 22,000 serious injuries requiring long-term care and treatment.

Driving a wheelchair for the rest of your life is NOT a cool way to get into electric transport.

Regards Prof. Rabbit

I don't understand what point your trying to make. :

[Biggoggs]

Almost all cars can go fast enought to kill the driver, even a Skoda!

Absolutely- it seems that the older & cheaper it is, the harder someone drives it

As for speeding, I've found most people are naturally impatient or want to drive fast[er]. Since the common speed limit changed from 60 to 50, I've seen more (if not most) drivers go at least 4 or 5 k's over the limit. Comments on points raised;
1. How many L/P-platers do you see with new cars?
2. What would less passengers do? Reduce deaths if the s hits the f?
3. Might learn something...

What I'd like to see is post-license education. I mean, there really is nowhere to learn the limits of a vehicle, or practise recovery techniques. Most people pick it up on the streets, but a small percentage stuff it up. Govt.-sponsored advanced or track driving courses would be nice.


Cheers

Most L platers are driving the family hack, plus maybe a few lessons from a driving school.

Question how many P platers drive hot Ricers, V8 Commos and generally anything fast and loud?

P plate + fast car + "mates" + night = serious danger

Ask any P plater if they can drive " 'Course I can bloody DRIVE!"

Yes the Govt. should set up advanced driver courses.

Then after 3 years with no tickets and no prangs you should get a C plate,
C for competent. ( plus 25% cheaper rego )

Regards Prof Rabbit

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

Absolutely- it seems that the older & cheaper it is, the harder someone drives it

As for speeding, I've found most people are naturally impatient or want to drive fast[er]. Since the common speed limit changed from 60 to 50, I've seen more (if not most) drivers go at least 4 or 5 k's over the limit. Comments on points raised;
1. How many L/P-platers do you see with new cars?
2. What would less passengers do? Reduce deaths if the s hits the f?
3. Might learn something...

What I'd like to see is post-license education. I mean, there really is nowhere to learn the limits of a vehicle, or practise recovery techniques. Most people pick it up on the streets, but a small percentage stuff it up. Govt.-sponsored advanced or track driving courses would be nice.


Cheers

[BuuBox]

I think that limiting learner drivers to but one passenger is a rather dangerous idea. The majority of learner drivers gain experience through driving their family around, most people don't just go out for a drive with their sons/daughters for the sole purpose of driving. Cutting this option would be cutting most learner drivers of adaquate driving experience. Previous to this, I think learner drivers had one of the safest accident records of road users (it was mentioned in the learner book).

A stock clubsport can't spin wheels at 100 or 110km/h.

Wasn't it raining? I seem to remember seeing that when it initially happened, that she may have accidently booted around a corner: torque (ha...) + LSD + rain... hrm.

Was a horrible accident though, imagine loosing your entire family. I don't think anyone could ever get over that.

[deesun]

I don't know if there was any indication of speeding in the news but if there was what the F**k was the supervisory person doing. Can't just blame the L plater :SaiyanSmi

[klawsterfobik]

If the Learner had booted it around a corner, theres not much the supervising driver could have done. The only thing that could have been done, would have to previously advised the Learner to slow down, and adjust to the conditions, but we'll never know if that happened.

[TIRED6]

Hey,

I agree. Most L platers get some where by the family goin with them. Any car can be a killer and any conditions. If a 32yr old experienced driver hit BLACK ICE like that Learner in the commodore. They would have a hell of a chance of doing the same thing she did. LOSE CONTROL. That truck driver is innocent but has to live with the road conditions. She should not have had the exchange student in the car but that happens. I have owned a V8 XE ute & I6 EF. I have driven a I6 XF, they can hammer as hard as the V8, BUT they lack the amount of weight. A heavier motor may hold you on the road better than a lighter 6cylinder. 4 cylinders can be the worst, the friggin fly but have no weight or thick supports as they are not needed due to the vehicle size or weight.

Just my 2 bob.

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by R & S Customs

Any car can be a killer and any conditions. If a 32yr old experienced driver hit BLACK ICE like that Learner in the commodore. They would have a hell of a chance of doing the same thing she did. LOSE CONTROL.

That is exactly right. The experienced driver might have the 32 years of experience on their side and know to slow down in those conditions, however they may also be tempted to think they can drive closer to the limit as a result of their experience (meaning no margin for error and a higher chance of something going wrong), and lets not forget that all it takes is losing concentration for a split second for whatever reason to cause an accident - that can happen to anyone and in fact I would say (*puts flame suit on*) that it is LESS likely for a learner driver to lose concentration then a driver with more experience. At least, personally, when I was a learner I know I wouldn't have lost concentration. I think a lot of people forget how much there is to learn, and how complex driving as a skill actually is, but when you're a learner you are more aware then most fully licensed drivers.

Originally Posted by R & S Customs

I have driven a I6 XF, they can hammer as hard as the V8, BUT they lack the amount of weight. A heavier motor may hold you on the road better than a lighter 6cylinder. 4 cylinders can be the worst, the friggin fly but have no weight or thick supports as they are not needed due to the vehicle size or weight.

Good point. I've driven both a Mk II Escort 2 door 1.6L and a EB Series II Falcon 4.0L over the westgate bridge in pouring rain with the wind blowing at almost gale forces, and as much as I love driving the little Ford Escorts, in those conditions the Falcon felt much better, safer and easier to keep in the lane, rather then feeling like it was right on the limit of traction and being blown around by the wind at 40km/h like the Escort.

Originally Posted by Magical_ED

Just another point to add, i have done 30 odd hours of driving, and nearly everyone of those hours i have had some person in a car tailgating. This puts pressure on the learner and they start to get intimidated, the other drivers just have no respect for learners, they will tailgate, overtake dangerously (double line road) and they will pull in close, try to overtake when you try to merge, its this that is ****ing me off as ive had it all, it makes you wonder how some of them would feel if they were in your boots new to driving with people tailgating etc

Couldn't agree more, I used to get that all the time too, still do when people see the P plates. Seems people just don't have any respect or patience these days, or maybe I'm just becoming an old fart... :

[LTDHO]

This raises alot of interesting points and questions.

Learners can learn in anything. Back when i was on my 'L's I couldn't believe/understand why I could drive a 351 but couldn't on my 'P's when I had more experience.

After having alot of experience now with the motor industry and the collisions, I see the causes of accidents an my oppinion differes from the 'professionals'.

Unfortunally I feel this is why there are still so many crashes. They can blame speed and power as much as they want but people are still dieing on the roads.

While a wide flat and/or heavy car is likely to be less affected by cross winds there are a world of dynamics that come into play.

Notice that world rally cars both past and present have been small hi performance & 4 cyl. World rallies cover all terrain, sand, gravel, snow, ice, mud etc. etc.

Originally Posted by The MaDDeSTMaN

Good point. I've driven both a Mk II Escort 2 door 1.6L and a EB Series II Falcon 4.0L over the westgate bridge in pouring rain with the wind blowing at almost gale forces, and as much as I love driving the little Ford Escorts, in those conditions the Falcon felt much better, safer and easier to keep in the lane, rather then feeling like it was right on the limit of traction and being blown around by the wind at 40km/h like the Escort.

Learners are more cautious, they also have someone watching.

As noted also P platers are indestructible and will insist they can drive better than everyone else.

Couldn't agree more, I used to get that all the time too, still do when people see the P plates. Seems people just don't have any respect or patience these days, or maybe I'm just becoming an old fart... :

[BuuBox]

I was thinking more about this on my home today, and even if learners are limited to only one passenger, isn't that putting off the inevitable until a little later? In worse conditions? What's more distracting, 4 mates in your car when you're on your P's, or your boring family on a sunday drive.

I think it's obvious. I hope for the sake of everyone on the road that this ignorant idea doesn't go through. Maybe you should have to drive a car to get your learners, like around a Vicroads 'test track', before you're thrusted on the highway... some learner drivers (and their 'teachers') certiantly don't have a clue. You can only be as good as your instructor, after all... eek.

[Magical_ED]

Ok i am gonna speak from a learners point of view here.
My first few driving lessons, were in a deserted factory backlot area, just me and my dad. I was learning the controls etc once i got going it rained, it did so for the next few lessons. Since then i have improved and rapidly due to the fact i learnt in the harder conditions first, i have had a dog run out infront of me 92nd lesson, btw i missed it and didnt lock a tyre at all no abs in the Ed), and have had buses and trucks pull out infront of me, its these situations learners need to learn now and not on their p's. By them learning them now they will be equipped and ready to handle it when an instructor is not there helping them through the drive. And just recently have i started taking passengers, i have found it a good experience, and it will again prepare me for when i drive by myself.
I think the government should pull their finger out, and when every nsw or australia wide for that fact, every learner that gets their p's should be given a free driver training course 9defensive driving, on the skid pan things they do) by doing this you will find that the toll will be reduced, as they can handle the situations in controlled environments.

[Kryton]

well i was told that on stateline they reported that the government is thinking of reducing the 100kmh speed limit to 95kmh for cars and 75kmh for trucks. dont know the truth behind it but i sure as hell dont like that train of though.
20 cars stuck behind a truck doing 75, go to over take 5 cars in front of you and the truck, next thing you know theres a car coming at you and your dead.
good thinking there.

[Magical_ED]

That c plate idea sounds alright, but would look retarded on a car if thats where you would want it displayed.
And i drive around my falcon (as featured in my avatar), or on the odd occasion my mums focus. I mean i have driven to newcatle and back (1 hr each way), and that has taught me to deal with slight fatigue, and it was late afternoon was getting dark and started raining. So i have had nearly all elements thrown at me which is the best thing..
Still the government should make the advanced, defensive (whatever you wanna call it) course make them a mandatory lesson after getting p plates.

I dunno, nice gold C on black would look pretty good, however the reward should be tangible, like a big reduction on your rego or two years extra for free on your licence renewal.

Regards Prof. Rabbit

Originally Posted by Magical_ED

That c plate idea sounds alright, but would look retarded on a car if thats where you would want it displayed.
And i drive around my falcon (as featured in my avatar), or on the odd occasion my mums focus. I mean i have driven to newcatle and back (1 hr each way), and that has taught me to deal with slight fatigue, and it was late afternoon was getting dark and started raining. So i have had nearly all elements thrown at me which is the best thing..
Still the government should make the advanced, defensive (whatever you wanna call it) course make them a mandatory lesson after getting p plates.

[RSgerry]

i believe that learners are statistically the safest drivers on teh road. it is when mum/dad is no longer sitting beside them that they suddnely know it all and no longer need to concentrate. there are plenty of safe p platers, but there is a very large percentage who just dont have a clue. teaching someone how to reverse around a corner is not a life saving skill. knowing the car, how to read the road, adjust to weather conditions etc is much more likely to save kids lives than a 3 point turn, especially when you just pull into someones driveway to turn the car around. i like p.rabbit's suggestion of rewarding drivers for a clean record, but sadly, it will never be implemented. why? because it COSTS governments money, it makes them nothing. and if it doesnt earn money, then it is not viable (just ask the WA government about its decision to can rally australia).

[Magical_ED]

Just another point to add, i have done 30 odd hours of driving, and nearly everyone of those hours i have had some person in a car tailgating. This puts pressure on the learner and they start to get intimidated, the other drivers just have no respect for learners, they will tailgate, overtake dangerously (double line road) and they will pull in close, try to overtake when you try to merge, its this that is ****ing me off as ive had it all, it makes you wonder how some of them would feel if they were in your boots new to driving with people tailgating etc

[Black XR6]

Each year in Australia there are:
• over 600,000 reported road crashes;
• over 200,000 reported injuries; and
• 22,000 serious injuries requiring long-term care and treatment.

So that means I have only a 1 in 3 cance of even being injured t all in a car crash......I like those odds.

[FPVWEPN]

rather have an accident in a car than have this hapen to me:
http://www.gaudens.com/motorcycle%20...e%20crash.mpeg

[Biggoggs]

Impatient people don't tend to bother me much, but they did when I started learning. Not much anyone can do about that though. As someone here has already mentioned, learning to parallel park is necessary, but it won't save you when your car is sliding sideways after dodging an offlane car from the other direction. I mean, most people learn stuff like powerslides/drift on the street --- carparks are usually too close to suburbia --- but if there was a reasonably close skidpen available for booking, wouldn't you take it? (note to self; business opportunity!)

The experienced driver might have the 32 years of experience on their side and know to slow down in those conditions, however they may also be tempted to think they can drive closer to the limit as a result of their experience (meaning no margin for error and a higher chance of something going wrong), and lets not forget that all it takes is losing concentration for a split second for whatever reason to cause an accident - that can happen to anyone and in fact I would say (*puts flame suit on*) that it is LESS likely for a learner driver to lose concentration then a driver with more experience.

Good points. You could also argue a driver with 32yrs experience generally drives faster (in comparison to a provisional with 4pts), and age might play a part in slower reaction times. I mean, who's ever been tailgated by a 30/40yr old woman in a 4x4? :P


Cheers

[Sourbastard]

I've driven on Black Ice and in blizzard conditions in Canada, through Tornado weather in the mid west, and once through a hurricane on the east coast of the US. About the only thing I havent driven on is Lava so far.

Comes down to two sorts of people. Those who are afraid and thus cautious of the conditions, those who arent smart enough to be afraid. Experience does not factor in if you arent that bright to begin with. Ive seen plenty of people who have lived in cold conditions all their life drive too fast in ice, and when they hit a patch, they have no control at all, period.

Hit the brakes, you keep sliding, hit the gas and the car spins, about the only thing you can do is try to steer in a straight line, keep pumping the brakes and pray something gets traction before you hit the intersection looming up infront of you. If you hit it on a bend at any speed, better hope your insurance is all paid up.

First thing, dont panic, second thing, dont panic, third thing, try and slow down.
If you are a P plater with your cape of invulnerability on, chances are you will be a statistic. And the same will apply if you have 32 years of experience under your belt and think you can handle all conditions at all speeds.

Training helps, but if at the end of it you are still an idiot, you will still become a hood ornament on a large truck with silver mud flaps. Atleast proper training might give you a chance.

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Well said sourbastard.

[T2TL50]

Hey,
I just want to add that i agree with the L Platers Being given Extensive Training.
I was a lucky L plater i have had nearly 500 Hours driving before i even got my P's..
I used to drive Things ranging from an AU11 Wagon to a sports Celica jeep wrangler Honda prelude to 4x4s (on occasion i drove a few 9 ton trucks too.) But i had a family member devoted to teaching me how to drive.. i was driven everywhere i live in werribee Vic and i was driven all over Victoria.. i was NOT i mean NOT allowed on public transport.. i learnt every condition you can imagine in those 2 years from the date i got my l's to the day i got my p's..
I myself have had no accidents thank god.. not even a few close calls.. i have hit my tow bar on my uncles car and a few things like that but that are all when the car is moving no more then 5 meters...
what i am saying is that PARENTS need to give there kids at least 30 mins a day of driving where they can... when you add that up it totals a few hundred hours...
It is not all about sending kids off to have there skills tested.. they then get a big head and think they know how to throw a car into a spin and get it back out.. i SURELY know i can.. I drove for 1 year an AU11 Wagon with the WHOLE rear full with rugs (he was a sales rep) so i never had a rear view mirrors and had to rely on the outer two... on dirt roads etc and i am ever so great full of it...

i just think parents need to take more responsibility for teaching their kids...

Cheers thats my 2c worth...

[T2TL50]

P.s Yes i do drive a rare car 1 of 12.. on my P's.. My first car was also a 98 Fairlane with a 5.0 V8... who says you have to have a shit box?: u Just need to know how to drive for being alone on the road...

Originally Posted by davocol

1. Encourage car manufacturers to make stability control, ABS and traction control standard on new vehicles.

Hmmm. Only if they allow the driver to turn them all off. We drive on gravel roads occasionally and the last thing we want is some stupid computer deciding it knows how to drive on gravel better than we do. Yes, we want the wheels to lock up to stop in an emergency and we want the tail end to slide sometimes (and stay sliding, too) thankyou. In fact, sometimes we want the tail end to keep sliding on the bitumen, too, because then we know what to do - imagine opposite lock combined with the ESP trying to control the slide - eeeek!

The drivers in the Porshe Cup (or whatever it's called) have been advised to turn ABS off when racing, otherwise they'll face an expensive repair bill when their Porshe runs along the gravel trap without any reduction in speed straight towards the barrier. All because the ABS decides that it knows better. Same thing when driving on gravel roads.