Engine lineages – interesting history

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 11:24 AM

one of my interests is finding out the history of engines (reading articles or watching documenteries) and how they related to cars that we may have driven or heard about. These examples are from decades ago but you may know some current ones. Probably anyone under 40 years old wont give a rats about this stuff but I will take a chance. I will have my flame suit on if you hate this stuff…..

1. the (NAZI funded) Daimer Benz, supercharger development of the Silver arrows grand prix cars and Mercedes road cars, ( germany was not allowed to develop aircraft after WW1) morphed into the DB605 engine which powered the Messerschmitt BF109

2. the Ford Anglia(1000cc) 4 cylinder KENT engine morphed into the COSWORTH DFV V8 (most successful F1 engine in history)

3. remember the Merc 300 SLR Gullwing (worlds first supercar), well that had a 3.0 litre slant 6. do you, or anyone you know have a 60’s Valiant? Take a good look at the Slant 6 motor, because it was designed by the same guy as the SLR 300. Rudolf Uhlenhaut. He was commissioned by Chrysler in the late 50’s for a while and he obviously likes slant 6’s..

4. the VN 3800 (arch enemy of the EA!). that motor was morphed from a 215CI Fireball V8 from 1961. that was an alloy engine originally and if you research Jack brabhams 1966 F1 world championship car, he used the block of one of those Fireball V8’s to base his engine on which we called the REPCO-BRABHAM. GM flogged that motor off to Rover for there use and it also ended up as the 4.4 lite engine in australia’s Leyland P76. how about that for a history?

If anybody proves me wrong in this stuff then Flame on.
do you know any engine design history stories yourself?

Iggypoppin' · 13-02-2009, 11:29 AM

an interesting read mate no flames at all. Looks like you are just an enthusiast sharing his knowledge! Interesting to read about the VN engine origins too.

LOCO XP · 13-02-2009, 12:10 PM

Interesting read, but wasn't the Holden V6 based on the Buick V6 from the 60's? Not sure but thats what I've always thought. Anyway that's what a friend of a friend told me back in school.... A couple more interesting developments would be the ill-fated Chrysler 4cyl Hemi (based on a 245 Hemi) and Starfire motors (which are often stripped for their conrods to put into Holden 6's), and also the Triumph V8's fitted to Stags etc. I don't really know much about these but my scrappy knowledge seems to think these all evolved from other engines, some bigger, some smaller.

Anyway, thread certainly got me thinking, might need to research and look further into some of these. Like the one about the Merc (dream car) and the Valiant engines.

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 12:20 PM

the hemi 245 was developed by the yanks (request by chrysler aust) to beat the monaro. they felt the 225 wasnt grunty enough, but the yanks had heaps of problems with the long block initially. probably why they stuck with the 225 for 2 decades....

the 3800 was borne of the 215 fireball V8. i have researched that and there is no doubt at all about that.

i only read of the slant 6/SLR design link in last 3 months or so. sometimes the back page of wheels has historical articles that i find out info from.

outback_ute · 14-02-2009, 03:51 PM

Very interesting thread!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphanna

the hemi 245 was developed by the yanks (request by chrysler aust) to beat the monaro. they felt the 225 wasnt grunty enough, but the yanks had heaps of problems with the long block initially. probably why they stuck with the 225 for 2 decades....

That doesn't make sense, I thought the Hemi was developed in Adelaide. Chrysler Aust certainly weren't using the 225 slant six for two decades, only one. I remember an article in Street Machine years ago, they were also going to do a 215ci Hemi, looked at a bigger version for US pickup use and also 5cyl and 4cyl versions. Before deciding on the Hemi configuration they also considered V6 and OHC.

eb2fairmont - did the sill spacing stay the same with the FG?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

The Toyota 1600 4AGE is a direct copy off the Lotus Ford twin cam engine ...

Lotus twin cam was only 2v/cyl, was the 4AGE based on the BDA Cosworth engine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by last fairlane

A couple of things I read about in the 60s was the Repco Brabham 5000 was made from two Peugot 4 cylinder motors welded to gether then stroked and bored

You might be thinking of Jim Hawkers Peugeot 403 V8, he made his own block and machined down the conrods to share the crankpins (may have made a crank too). The engine is (or was) in the museum at Phillip Island.

One interesting thing about the Holden V8 is the RH bank is "forward" to suit RHD cars. I thought the Datsun L-series motor looks very similar to the BMW 4/6cyl ohc. The Standard Vanguard motor is a classic - the same engine powering a sportscar and a tractor! Corvette ZR1 LT5 motor was designed by Lotus.

500SEC - I think that was inter-company rivalry, the same reason the Jag XJ40 was designed so a vee engine would not fit (they were worried the Rover V8 would replace the AJ16 they were working on), and that ended up causing a lot of hassle when they got around to making a V12 version!

jphanna · 14-02-2009, 05:08 PM

[QUOTE=outback_ute]Very interesting thread!

That doesn't make sense, I thought the Hemi was developed in Adelaide.

when i get the chance i will send you the link to the engineer yank that described the whole process in finite detail if you like. give me a day or so.

eb2fairmont · 15-02-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Very interesting thread!

That doesn't make sense, I thought the Hemi was developed in Adelaide. Chrysler Aust certainly weren't using the 225 slant six for two decades, only one. I remember an article in Street Machine years ago, they were also going to do a 215ci Hemi, looked at a bigger version for US pickup use and also 5cyl and 4cyl versions. Before deciding on the Hemi configuration they also considered V6 and OHC.

eb2fairmont - did the sill spacing stay the same with the FG?

500SEC - I think that was inter-company rivalry, the same reason the Jag XJ40 was designed so a vee engine would not fit (they were worried the Rover V8 would replace the AJ16 they were working on), and that ended up causing a lot of hassle when they got around to making a V12 version!

Yes, the sill spacing is largely the same. For the ea the front part was modified to fit the new wishbone front end. Those pressings "largely" carry through to the FG. For the BA the back suspension/structure was redesigned

You're right on the Jag XJ40 too.

henry 351 · 13-02-2009, 12:43 PM

That Daimler Benz story is quite a " morph", from a straight 8 5.6 litre 646hp, to a 60 degree 36 litre V12 with 1550hp! Plus, the V12 had methanol/water injection to assist quick take offs. Once airborne, some even had nitrous...

The ironic thing about the BF 109 was that pre-war prototype had a Rolls Royce engine. After the war,the Spanish airforce used them until 1954. Again, the irony was that they had been retrofitted with Rolls Merlin engines.

On the local front, I believe the 308 Holden had been factory engineered to go to 350cid, but Holden never went through with it. From memory, this came to light when the HSV taxi yellow GTS-R's came out years ago.

A decision most Ford racing drivers in the 70's and 80's would appreciate.

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 01:17 PM

[QUOTE=henry 351]That Daimler Benz story is quite a " morph", from a straight 8 5.6 litre 646hp, to a 60 degree 36 litre V12 with 1550hp! Plus, the V12 had methanol/water injection to assist quick take offs. Once airborne, some even had nitrous...

the info i seen in a documentary claims the Germans were not allowed to develop aircraft during the 20's, so they (NAZI) funded Grand prix racing to develop the Supercharger technology for adaption to the aircraft. The DB605 stands for Daimler Benz.

also the 1957 507 coupe BMW (commercial failure) had a 3.2 pushrod V8. in a wheels or motor magazine in 80's or 90's, claimed that the basis of the Buick fireball V8 COULD have been based on the BMW motor which was disgarded by BMW. i have not been able to confirm this in any BMW or Buick site for years, but the bore/stroke and capacities are similar. This is stuff that i find most interesting! who would think the 3800V6 would have such a intestesting history.

the 245 was developed by the Yanks, but the 265 was pushed and developed by the aussies, in their bid for more grunt (against the yanks advice).

last fairlane · 13-02-2009, 01:34 PM

Hi all great thread
A couple of things I read about in the 60s was the Repco Brabham 5000 was made from two Peugot 4 cylinder motors welded to gether then stroked and bored and the other thing was the Buick alloy V8 that they developed but couldnt keep coll so the sold it to the Poms at Rover who turned it into a 3.5 Litre and the Aussies turned it into a 4.4 Litre for the P76 I had one of those in the 70s it was an Executive the equivelent of a Fairmont V8 bucket seats air con and power steer also as far as I know that motor was the basis for the Truimph Stag motor you can correct me on that bit if you like
and like XB says Datsuns had a direct copy of an Austin A 40 motor which was the forerunner of the 1800/1100/ and the Mini and MGBs
thanks John

mik · 13-02-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Hi all great thread
A couple of things I read about in the 60s was the Repco Brabham 5000 was made from two Peugot 4 cylinder motors welded to gether then stroked and bored and the other thing was the Buick alloy V8 that they developed but couldnt keep coll so the sold it to the Poms at Rover who turned it into a 3.5 Litre and the Aussies turned it into a 4.4 Litre for the P76 I had one of those in the 70s it was an Executive the equivelent of a Fairmont V8 bucket seats air con and power steer also as far as I know that motor was the basis for the Truimph Stag motor you can correct me on that bit if you like
and like XB says Datsuns had a direct copy of an Austin A 40 motor which was the forerunner of the 1800/1100/ and the Mini and MGBs
thanks John

yeah another reason to sell the v8 off to the poms is that it was too small to power the big tanks.

MethodX · 13-02-2009, 08:17 PM

That Oldsmobile/Buick Alloy angine.
Wasnt there a turbo version in 1961?
The Oldsmobile Jetfire.

Pretty handy for way back then

buickman · 14-02-2009, 10:11 AM

The Buick line of mtrs has an interesting history and many evolved from the 215 fireball V8.
The V6 Buick mtr that was fitted to the Aussie holdens evolved from a early seventies 350 (5.7) Buick V8 with 2 pots removed like a starfire Holden mtr even the pistons, oil pump , timing cover and bell housing were the same on the early V6 and V8 mtrs.

The line of mtrs that eventually evolved out of the 215 Buick fireballs V8 included the RoverV8 Leyland Aussie V8 the Buick 350, 430 and 455 cu V8’s.

The well known V6 that powered many vehicles in N/A , Turbo charged and supercharged form. It was also an odd fire and even fire mtr at one stage. In 1987 it powered the quickest domestic production car in the US the Buick Grand National turbo V6 even quicker than the Corvette of that year over ¼ mile
It was made into FWD to power the later cars and even the Aussie 253 and 308 had some designs incorporated into them from the Buick V8 mtrs

xbgs351 · 18-02-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Hi all great thread
A couple of things I read about in the 60s was the Repco Brabham 5000 was made from two Peugot 4 cylinder motors welded to gether then stroked and bored and the other thing was the Buick alloy V8 that they developed but couldnt keep coll so the sold it to the Poms at Rover who turned it into a 3.5 Litre and the Aussies turned it into a 4.4 Litre for the P76 I had one of those in the 70s it was an Executive the equivelent of a Fairmont V8 bucket seats air con and power steer also as far as I know that motor was the basis for the Truimph Stag motor you can correct me on that bit if you like
and like XB says Datsuns had a direct copy of an Austin A 40 motor which was the forerunner of the 1800/1100/ and the Mini and MGBs
thanks John

Rob · 13-02-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphanna

1. the (NAZI funded) Daimer Benz, supercharger development of the Silver arrows grand prix cars and Mercedes road cars, ( germany was not allowed to develop aircraft after WW1) morphed into the DB605 engine which powered the Messerschmitt BF109

Good thread!

The DB60x series owed some development to the earlier race engines, but they were developed independently in the pre-war era. The DB600 was an inverted V12, rather than a straight 8.

The BF109 was designed for the Junkers Jumo, but there was a licence agreement for the RR Kestrel, which was also tested in the 109. The DB601 was chosen to replace the Jumo in the 109C/Ds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry 351

.

On the local front, I believe the 308 Holden had been factory engineered to go to 350cid, but Holden never went through with it. From memory, this came to light when the HSV taxi yellow GTS-R's came out years ago.

Wasn't the holden V8 originally designed as the 253?

Harrop actually developed the stroker 350 - whether the V8 was designed to accomodate larger displacement or not, I'm not sure.

Nikked · 13-02-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

Wasn't the holden V8 originally designed as the 253?

Harrop actually developed the stroker 350 - whether the V8 was designed to accomodate larger displacement or not, I'm not sure.

Yep, the 308 run along side it.

It was destroked to 304 by HDT in the 80's to come under the Group A class limit (5000cc).

The VS HSV GTS, senator and GTS-R came with 355ci (sill called a 5.7) strokers.

The GTS-R had the option of engine blueprinting.

last fairlane · 13-02-2009, 07:34 PM

Hi Thanks for that info about the dolly motors and the Stag and I can still recall reading about the Peugot link back then maybe there was more than one Brabham effort to make a racing engine:I also think from memory they were made in South Melbourne as part of GHH
OK how about the Triumph Vanguard 4 cylinder turning into the Fergie tractor power plant
thanks John

xbgs351 · 18-02-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Hi Thanks for that info about the dolly motors and the Stag and I can still recall reading about the Peugot link back then maybe there was more than one Brabham effort to make a racing engine:I also think from memory they were made in South Melbourne as part of GHH
OK how about the Triumph Vanguard 4 cylinder turning into the Fergie tractor power plant
thanks John

There where many Repco engines, but no "Brabham efforts".
620
630
640
730
740
750
760
860
Repco-Holden

Road_Warrior · 15-02-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

The VS HSV GTS, senator and GTS-R came with 355ci (sill called a 5.7) strokers.

The GTS-R had the option of engine blueprinting.

I'm being pedantic here, but the VR GTS and later HSV cars that used the Harrop-developed 5.7 litre stroker were actually 347 cubes - the 355 stroker was developed by COME Racing back in the mid 1990's as I recall as a crank, rods and pistons only kit (or they build one for you). The 355 was 5.9 or 6.0 litres I think.

And yeah, the big yellow taxi had the option of blueprinting by HRT and pushed power output to 235kw (apparently).

last fairlane · 15-02-2009, 01:10 PM

Charlie says Holdens tried crossflow heads but didnt work but it did work Holdens have had "crossflow" heads since 1969 they were called 253 and 308 just a bit of fun but technically correct as a V8 has the inlet on one side of the head and the exhaust on the other IE "crossflow"

Powdered Toast Man · 13-02-2009, 12:45 PM

Loco, I was lead to believe the Holden 3.8 V6 was a Buick engine. But thats not to say that the Buick V6 wasn't derived from somewhere else.

I believe the 4.4L V8 in the Landrover Disco and Rangy was of Buick origins as well, which makes sense if it was sold to Rover like jphanna mentioned. I should note I mean before Ford and then BMW owned Land Rover as they used an increased capacity version of the Jag 4.2 and then the BMW 4.4.

LOCO XP · 13-02-2009, 12:55 PM

From a brief wikipedia browse, the most reliable source of info in the world lol.

The Buick V6, initially marketed as Fireball at its introduction in 1962, is a large V6 engine used by General Motors. The block is made of cast iron and all use two-valve-per-cylinder iron heads, actuated by pushrods....

The LN3 was replaced by the 3.8 L (3791 cc, 231 cu in)[3] L27 in 1991-1992 and produced 170 horsepower (130 kW) from 1992 onward, this engine was referred to as the Series I 3800. In Australia, the LN3 was also replaced by the L27 by Holden who used the engine in their series 2 (1991) VN Commodore range. However, the Australian L27 retained the LN3's one piece upper intake and lower plenum. Power was still boosted to 127 kW (170 hp) for the Holden L27. The L36 made its debut in 1995.

Applications:

Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Holden Commodore (VNII, VP, VR)
Holden Statesman (VQ, VR)
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Trans Sport
Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight
Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight
Oldsmobile Toronado
Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo
Oldsmobile Silhouette

LOCO XP · 13-02-2009, 12:57 PM

..... but to continue..... the origins of the Buick V6

Fireball V6
The first engine in this family was introduced in 1961 with Buick's 198 cu in (3.2 L) engine, the first V6 in an American car. Because it was derived from Buick's 215 cu in (3.5 L) aluminum V8, it has a 90° bank between cylinders and an odd-fire firing pattern that include the two 'phantom' cylinders from the V8 pattern.

eb2fairmont · 13-02-2009, 01:17 PM

Excellent work LOCO.

The Mercedes SL motor was only put on an angle to allow for the low bonnet line. The engine came direct for the the 300 cars, where it was mounted upright.

The 300Sl motor was also the first use of mechanical fuel injection. The 300 motor was originally Carb.

Oh here's one for you...the Falcon 6 shares the same bore spacing as the 1962 XK, and the spacing between the sills on the Falcon is the same as the 1966 XR.

**ebxr8240** · 13-02-2009, 01:17 PM

The triumph V8 was two 4 cylinder engines cast as v8..

The motor before the Chrysler slant was a side valve 6 and stood
too high to fit.. So they laid it over.. It has similar bottom end features as the side valve with new ohv top end..

**ebxr8240** · 13-02-2009, 01:32 PM

The old 18rg Toyota engine was very similar to Austins 1800 B series engine..
The Toyota 1600 4AGE is a direct copy off the Lotus Ford twin cam engine ...
Mazda rotory where designed from NSU a German, Felix ****el designed in 50's..

xbgs351 · 17-02-2009, 10:33 PM

[QUOTE=ebxr8240]
The Toyota 1600 4AGE is a direct copy off the Lotus Ford twin cam engine ...
QUOTE]

Really?

LOTUS

4AGE

Wally · 17-02-2009, 11:30 PM

In fairness, there was a fairly strong rumour mill at the time that, although the head was a Yamaha casting, the engine concept was very similar to the Cosworth in terms of geometry.

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 01:39 PM

did you mean 3000cc. that was limit in 60's. i havnt come accross the Peugot story but i will dig very deep to see if it surfaces in any Jack brabham links. so far the buick block story ha appeared many times over the years describing his home made effort, but the peugot story is very interesting indeed....

xbgs351 · 18-02-2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphanna

did you mean 3000cc. that was limit in 60's. i havnt come accross the Peugot story but i will dig very deep to see if it surfaces in any Jack brabham links. so far the buick block story ha appeared many times over the years describing his home made effort, but the peugot story is very interesting indeed....

There were 2.5, 3.0, 4.2, 4.4 & 5.0 litres versions of the Repco engines and that is excluding the Repco-Holden engine. They where used in F1, Indy, Lemans, hillclimbing, sports cars, boat racing, Tasman Series etc.