AU tuning options

[b2tf]

I have a mate who is fairly keen on getting his ute tuned, it is a 200kw motor with headers and exhaust, bigger intake and manifold spacer and also has diff gears. Other than that it is basically stock.

Now I know we have covered this numerous times but I am a little rusty on all the options available now hence me asking - which tuning system and why? I've listed them below with a few thoughts, please feel free to offer your input. Not interested in which tuner does it, he can decide that himself, but more looking at which system to use.

System: Moates Quarterhorse
Pros: Allows end user tuning, not limited to any specific tuners - anybody can do it. This could be handy as his location is not close to any major tuners in Sydney or Melbourne but there are a number of engine builders etc that could do the job but just dont have the software. Cheap.

Cons: Does it allow as many 'changes' to the tune as other packages?

System: Sniper
Pros: Cheap. Easy enough to do.

Cons: Costs every time you change it. But don't they all?

System: SCT Xcal3
Pros: Highly capable tuning suite. Very effective. Supported by lots of tuners.

Cons: Expensive compared to the other 2. Limited to being tuned by licenced tuners etc.

I should also add that at this stage the initial tune would be a generic tune with the possibility of a custom tune/modification of the generic tune down the track. The aim behind the tuning is to make the most out of the mods already done and generally 'wake up' the car.

Feel free to add your thoughts.

[T3man]

I've only had experience with SCT - don't have any complaints with it and I believe several variables are user adjustable with the XCal3 version. Now ordinarily I'm a bit of a fiddler but I must say the tune Spiro put in the XCal3 suits me fine and I have left it alone.

[AUIIPURSUIT]

if you got enough brains and perserverance to learn QH, why would you get anything else?

p.s. we all know this is for you aust.

if you want something a bit simpler that a tuner can do for you, i think xcal3 is the best option.

if i hold onto my ute ill be getting QH.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by AUIIPURSUIT

p.s. we all know this is for you aust.

Hahaha - not this time. I am very interested to see how he goes with it though and if it works out I may follow suit.

[crakrz]

You know my thoughts on this one. But if he wants the convenience and the job taken care of by a professional, probably stick with SCT. With the Quarterhorse there is a lot of reading and learning to be done. Which of course suited me fine. As for the capabilities of each system, basically the same because they are just tweaking what is already written for that particular calibration.

-Craig

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by crakrz

You know my thoughts on this one. But if he wants the convenience and the job taken care of by a professional, probably stick with SCT. With the Quarterhorse there is a lot of reading and learning to be done. Which of course suited me fine. As for the capabilities of each system, basically the same because they are just tweaking what is already written for that particular calibration.

-Craig

Thanks Craig, I was hoping you'd add your 2c here.

I know what you mean with the 'plug and play and go' setup of SCT, my main sticking point with it is that it is very limited to who can do the work. For example I know I have a capable workshop here where I am who could tune my ute for me no worries but they aren't an SCT dealer and they wouldn't become one because the demand for it would be so low - but if I went with QH they could do it because I would have all the gear for them to do it with if that makes sense. But that's my opinion and this particular car isnt mine, so we'll see which one he chooses.

[crakrz]

I can see what your saying Aust. Well if its just the basics of altering the fuel table and spark curves, then any tuner can do that with the QH.

Turn up at his workshop with your laptop plugged into the QH via USB connection, give it a run. Make adjustments on the fly to achieve the desired results through either Clint Garrity's Binary Editor or Mark Mansur's Tuner Pro RT. I use Binary Editor.

So as long as the tuner is familiar with fuel and spark tables (as if they wouldn't be), it will be a no brainer. Of course with mods a few more parameters may need adjusting.

-Craig

[robbyj]

system: J3 chip
Pro's: Much like the Xcal3 system. Chip plugs into the ECU. Can store multiple tunes. Tunes can be selected on the fly provided the switch is hooked up with it. Chip is cheaper then the Xcal3. ($120 for the actual chip i believe).

Con's: Perhaps not as many tuners use this compared with other alternatives

Also, i looked into this which was i could get the j3 chip pre custom tuned. All i needed to supply was a dyno printout, list of mods and other small details like smartshield/smartlock, series 1,2,3 etc. The tuner could then take all this into account, look at the dyno sheet and pre tune the chip. This is A LOT CHEAPER then a custom dyno tune, but obviously wont yield the same results as the custom dyno tune. but a tune on a budget this would be a great way to go.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by bobuleh

system: J3 chip
Pro's: Much like the Xcal3 system. Chip plugs into the ECU. Can store multiple tunes. Tunes can be selected on the fly provided the switch is hooked up with it. Chip is cheaper then the Xcal3. ($120 for the actual chip i believe).

Con's: Perhaps not as many tuners use this compared with other alternatives

Also, i looked into this which was i could get the j3 chip pre custom tuned. All i needed to supply was a dyno printout, list of mods and other small details like smartshield/smartlock, series 1,2,3 etc. The tuner could then take all this into account, look at the dyno sheet and pre tune the chip. This is A LOT CHEAPER then a custom dyno tune, but obviously wont yield the same results as the custom dyno tune. but a tune on a budget this would be a great way to go.

^^^ THIS

J3 is also not going to ask you to purchase the updated model after a certain period of time either so you have no fear of your tuning unit being obsolete or out of date. Support for the unit is here in Australia too.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by blueoval

^^^ THIS

J3 is also not going to ask you to purchase the updated model after a certain period of time either so you have no fear of your tuning unit being obsolete or out of date. Support for the unit is here in Australia too.

To be honest I thought J3 chips were limited to E series!

[crakrz]

No not at all. That's all a Moates Quarterhorse is. Its a glorified J3 chip. It just has the ability of USB connection to your laptop and live tuning and datalogging. It can be removed just like a J3 chip.

A standard J3 chip is removed and reprogrammed via a chip burner. This means that everytime you wish to make an alteration, you have to remove the chip, plug it in to the burner, update the tune to your new settings, and plug it back in to the ECU.

This is a lot of mucking around, but the biggest problem is that it leaves you wide open for a possible poor connection at the J3 port edge connection of the ECU. This was my main reason for choosing the QH over removeable J3 chips.

The QH is put in place and never touched again. I have a USB connection now in my glovebox so that I can connect it straight to my 10" Acer notebook, which also lives in the glovebox.

-Craig

[blueoval]

crakrz - That's pretty convenient to have mate. I like the thought of that style. Saves having to remove the cover in the foot well all the time.

Any idea on the cost of the MQH on top of the J3?

[crakrz]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Any idea on the cost of the MQH on top of the J3?

Best bet is to PM Matt@Bullett Performance Racing (forum sponsor) for an accurate figure. Please do not quote me here as it was quite a while back. I'm pretty sure it was $450-500 plus $130 for the software and of course dyno time, plus the cost of the laptop.

Now I can hear some people already saying "You can get a custom SCT X-cal3 tune for that". And you would be correct. The $$ worked out to be about equal. But now I have total control, and I won't get told that my hardware is no longer supported 3-5 years later. Its not for everyone but it was perfect for me.

I found a pic of the QH unit too. The black part underneath is the J3 edge connector just like any other J3 chip, and the yellow part in the top left corner is the USB connection.


-Craig

[auIILTD]

Craig, when reporting that you decided on the QH, you mentioned that you had to do a bit of research and learning to use the system. The question I have, when you learnt to tune, did you have any background / knowledge of the parameters involved to tune, or did learn it all from scratch? In other words, are you a mechanic and just extended your skill set?

Sorry if it is an obvious or vague question, just wanting to learn what the extent of learning is involved to get to the level that you have.

Regards
Stu

[crakrz]

Good questions Stu, basically just expanded my skills a bit further.

I am an "Automotive Machinist" by trade. Which means engine reconditioner basically. I will say straight up that i am no expert and I have been out of the trade for 12yrs but I certainly have a good understanding of the internal combustion engine.

As for the tuning of the ECU, I started from scratch. I have spent many hours reading on http://eectuning.org to understand the parameter descriptions and their functions. So while my wife is watching Masterchef or some c**p like that, I do some reading.

I also downloaded the free trial version of Clint Garrity's Binary Editor from http://eecanalyzer.net to get a good idea of what all this looks like on the PC.

Keep in mind 90% of the functions don't need touching. Ford spent millions on doing that for us. Its just the basics- fuel, spark, and airflow that most people change. Of course if you add different injectors, MAF, add a supercharger, change the engine displacement, and things like that, then you will have to do a bit more trial and error and ask more questions on the forums for your individual application.

-Craig

[auIILTD]

Thanks Craig. Good answer.

This thread seems a good place to ask. I have been doing a bit of reading and in particular the factory workshop manuals mention the use of NGS tester, which I have found is the Ford VCM module which connects to the car and comes with software for many functions on a modern Ford (and others). This unit, which is a dealer unit is what they use to program new keys amoungst other things. Does anyone know if you can change basics like fuel, spark and airflow with a Rotunda VCM? Anyone have an opinion on such a unit?

Regards
Stu

[Sox]

This MHQ doodad sounds the goods.

So, once I have the kit, which is in the order of $500 or so, I can fiddle with mixture, ignition, etc, at will, correct?
There's no restrictions as to who does it, I will have all the necessary stuff to do it myself at home, on a dyno, or at the track, correct?

I have 2 XR8's, am I able to get just another chip and the the same to it? Or would I need another complete kit?

The biggest hurdle is the learning curve of the software?

And lastly, am I correct in that as soon as the chip is pulled from the ECU, it's all back to standard?
.

[auIILTD]

Originally Posted by Sox

This MHQ doodad sounds the goods.

So, once I have the kit, which is in the order of $500 or so, I can fiddle with mixture, ignition, etc, at will, correct?
There's no restrictions as to who does it, I will have all the necessary stuff to do it myself at home, on a dyno, or at the track, correct?

I have 2 XR8's, am I able to get just another chip and the the same to it? Or would I need another complete kit?

The biggest hurdle is the learning curve of the software?

And lastly, am I correct in that as soon as the chip is pulled from the ECU, it's all back to standard?
.

My understanding is that you would just need a seperate J3 chip for each car. I have started reading at the above link EECTuning.org. Lots of information there. I am sure all of your answers are there too.

Stu

[crakrz]

Originally Posted by Sox

This MHQ doodad sounds the goods.

So, once I have the kit, which is in the order of $500 or so, I can fiddle with mixture, ignition, etc, at will, correct?
There's no restrictions as to who does it, I will have all the necessary stuff to do it myself at home, on a dyno, or at the track, correct?

I have 2 XR8's, am I able to get just another chip and the the same to it? Or would I need another complete kit?

The biggest hurdle is the learning curve of the software?

And lastly, am I correct in that as soon as the chip is pulled from the ECU, it's all back to standard?
.

Hi Sox,

Firstly if there is someone more knowlegeable with these questions than me, please speak up as I do not wish to lead people up the garden path so to speak.

The answer to your first and second question is "yes".

Your 2 vehicles will most likely have different 4 digit catch codes unless you are extremely lucky. Definitely need 2 QH units, or J3 chips, whichever you prefer. I'm pretty sure that only one purchase of the software is required. The only thing that can cost some more dollars is if your ECU strategy is not defined or supported yet, and somebody has to write a definition for the software. Then you will have 2 different strategy licences. You can find out once you have the 4 digit code.

The answer to your last question is "yes"

-Craig




.

[auIILTD]

This is awesome Craig. I have been reading non stop since you provided the links last night. I am hooked. The MQH option appears to be very very doable - just a lot of reading and learning to do!

Quick question, did you have the QH hardware when you did most of your reading / learning? It makes sense that you have the data logging functionality available to you whilst you are learning.

I am hooked - I think I could do this!

Stu

[auIILTD]

For those wanting to find out more, on the Moates Quaterhorse, check out this doco from the Moates website:

http://www.moates.net/quarterhorse/qh_intro_meyer.doc

A lot of the basic questions answered.

This is just getting better!
Stu

[DW260]

All this certainly makes for interesting reading. I was looking at all three options this week, and while the QH tuning package was tempting, on Thursday I purchased the Sniper package. I like the idea of the plug and play - set and forget, style this package offered.

I spoke to Matt at Bullet PT at length (who mentioned Crakrz), and we decided Sniper was best for me. While I admire those who choose to tune their own cars, I couldn't be bothered (I'm lazy ). With the Sniper it enables me to download information to my computer and email it to BPT, who can then pour through the data and send me a new tune via email. Happy days!

No just to wait for the mailman...

[Sox]

Originally Posted by crakrz

Hi Sox,

Firstly if there is someone more knowlegeable with these questions than me, please speak up as I do not wish to lead people up the garden path so to speak.

The answer to your first and second question is "yes".

Your 2 vehicles will most likely have different 4 digit catch codes unless you are extremely lucky. Definitely need 2 QH units, or J3 chips, whichever you prefer. I'm pretty sure that only one purchase of the software is required. The only thing that can cost some more dollars is if your ECU strategy is not defined or supported yet, and somebody has to write a definition for the software. Then you will have 2 different strategy licences. You can find out once you have the 4 digit code.

The answer to your last question is "yes"

-Craig.

Thanks mate, looks good.

[b2tf]

Thought I might update this thread, I drove the car in question the other day and there is definitely a noticable change in performance following tuning. The owner ended up using Sniper to tune the car and the current tune in it is the 'performance' tune as supplied by BPR.
I think based on this experience and also how far my jaw dropped when I saw the amount of reading to understand/use Quarterhorse, I would also choose Sniper if it were my car. It is essentially the same as Xcal3 with a few changes in regards to who/how the tunes are uploaded.

I think the owner of the car considers it money well spent and after having a drive of it I would tend to agree.

[FTe342]

Where do you find the catch code for your car?

Is this J3 chip & the QH one just a piggyback chip like a Unichip?

If so, can the car computer "learn" its way around the piggyback as I have read elsewhere on here

Will the QH work on AU III ?

[crakrz]

Originally Posted by FTe342

Is this J3 chip & the QH one just a piggyback chip like a Unichip?

If so, can the car computer "learn" its way around the piggyback as I have read elsewhere on here

Will the QH work on AU III ?

A piggyback such as a Unichip or Haltech are interceptors. I don't know if they alter the input from the sensors before the ECU, or alter the output command from the ECU. Either way the ECU is being lied to and the adaptive learning can basically alter the fuel trims etc, etc back to their original targets over time. With a J3 chip, the ECU is getting its commands, settings, parameters and all that directly from the chip. There is no "middle man" so to speak. And yes the QH can be used on AU III, just like mine.

Originally Posted by auIILTD

This is awesome Craig. I have been reading non stop since you provided the links last night. I am hooked. The MQH option appears to be very very doable - just a lot of reading and learning to do!

Quick question, did you have the QH hardware when you did most of your reading / learning? It makes sense that you have the data logging functionality available to you whilst you are learning.

I am hooked - I think I could do this!

Stu

I did a lot of reading before I purchased anything.

I don't have the datalogging up and running just yet, as my strategy was unsupported at the time I purchased it. Matt and I have organised to get together in the future to get it sorted. It hasn't bothered me because I have an LC-1 wideband to monitor A/F ratios.

[FTe342]

Thanks for that. What about the catch code? Any other info needed from the ECU to buy the correct software?

[crakrz]

Originally Posted by FTe342

Thanks for that. What about the catch code? Any other info needed from the ECU to buy the correct software?

No I don't think so. Can't think of anything else at the moment.

To find your ECU code, pull the passenger side footwell carpet closest to the passenger door, away from the ECU. Then you can put your hand on the underside of the ECU, you will feel a 1" x 2" black plastic port cover.

If you have a torch and a small mirror you will be able to read the 4 digit code from the sticker on it. eg/ 22NA, 22CA, 12RB or something similar like that.

This is the first step. See how you go. See what codes that your cars have.

-Craig

[blueoval]

I have heard good things about Sniper tunes too. Yes, its basically the same as xcal3 except you dont get a unit to take with you. Its left to the tuner to upload as far as I am aware. But I have always wondered how it would go if you needed to 'reflash' the ecu to rid it of the KAM that the ecu picks up over time?

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by blueoval

I have heard good things about Sniper tunes too. Yes, its basically the same as xcal3 except you dont get a unit to take with you. Its left to the tuner to upload as far as I am aware. But I have always wondered how it would go if you needed to 'reflash' the ecu to rid it of the KAM that the ecu picks up over time?

Actually you do and it looks like this:



Operates the same as an Xcal.