NSW P-Plater restrictions - part two.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I went to 3 funerals that year, but then i guess I'm not qualified to know what I'm talking about. Me and everyone else that is trying to warn you that FUN can very quickly get way out of hand.

i know thinks can go from good to bad, and i to have already seen 2 very close mates wind up 6 foot under as well. but your not getting what im saying, just because im 19 doesn't mean i don't know what goin on, and im not sayin i know more then anyone else at all.

wait till we meet up for a drive one day, you'll see im not like everyother 19 yo that thinks holding your foot flat to the floor is the only way to drive, i got that out of my system a long time ago.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Fun. Thats what the track is for. Spectating and when my XP is build, participating. The road is not for racing, or being a moron. I've Never done a burnout on an open road, or any such "fun". Driving distances everyday is part of my job, and i've done alot more driving in mroe places and conditions then you are likely to do before the end of your life. I have more fun working on my car then driving the sucker anyway.

You my poor boy, are just a 19 year old jackass on his way to becoming a temporary stain on a Highway.

I can tell you easily how accidents are caused. Its caused by human error. Your parents should be able to relate.

hey man where did i say i was a hoon?? on paddocks with an ol gemini i am but thats on a paddock with an ol gemini!

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Sorry but come on, all these things can and do happen at any time when driving "normally" and still have fatal consequences. You can't just list off a bunch of possibilities that are due to maintenance or chance and say they are going to happen because of a lack of experience.

I think it's annoying that it's all about you have no experience but instead of being willing to teach they try and find a scape goat to win over votes and or revenue.

Oh and just a real life observation that I have made driving daily over a 1 lane bridge with a giveway sign at one end. Mums in 4WDs, tradies and Telstra vans all completely ignore it on a regular basis : . I have yet to have to slam on my brakes for a P plater (I always approach the bridge with extreme caution and high-beam)

Sure they can happen as a matter of maintainence, but they can also happen due to catastrophic failure. And if by Fun I interperet that as "going fast and going sideways" my chances of surviving a chance encounter with wildlife are far more likely at 100 then they are at 150. These were examples of problems that can occur during the "Theres nothing about lets have fun" mentality phase. Hardly a definitive list mate.

I didnt say all P platers are bad drivers, but lets face facts here. I didnt know half as much, nor anticipate other drivers at all when I was on my P's. I simply did not know how to make room for other peoples mistakes. Anyone who says they have learned everything there is to learn on while still on their P's is mistaken, anyone who says they have learned nothing about traffic since leaving their P's is likely to die.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Sure they can happen as a matter of maintainence, but they can also happen due to catastrophic failure. And if by Fun I interperet that as "going fast and going sideways"

hey stop there by fun i don't mean sideways, thats just exceeding your limits, which causes crashes.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

From a study conducted by the Uni of WA and printed in the Sunday Times in WA:

Young drivers are no more likely to have a fatal or serious crash in a powerful car than in other vehicles, research has revealed.

Without disputing this finding, what about crashes that did not cause serious injury? Statistically speaking the number of cases studied is on the small side to be drawing absolute conclusions, even if they are not likely to vary a great deal (eg 3% might become 5%).

Also it says that 3% of p-platers drove cars that would not be allowed under Vic p-plate restrictions, now I suppose there would be a few more that would be picked up by the NSW restrictions (eg 253s) but for such a small percentage who would actually be affected why are you guys getting so upset by all this? Is it so hard to go a couple of years in a car that is cheaper to buy and insure, uses less fuel, attracts less attention from police, less likely to be stolen…

Heeno have you thought that you might be in a small minority experience wise? Even in the country plenty of people don’t get the paddock-bomb or on-farm driving experience you have had.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Heeno have you thought that you might be in a small minority experience wise? Even in the country plenty of people don’t get the paddock-bomb or on-farm driving experience you have had.

yea i know, but it just ****es me off when you get told by randoms, that your a sh!t driver just because of your age, i donno just got a bit emotional about it.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

i know thinks can go from good to bad, and i to have already seen 2 very close mates wind up 6 foot under as well. but your not getting what im saying, just because im 19 doesn't mean i don't know what goin on, and im not sayin i know more then anyone else at all.

wait till we meet up for a drive one day, you'll see im not like everyother 19 yo that thinks holding your foot flat to the floor is the only way to drive, i got that out of my system a long time ago.

I'm not saying you do or do not know how to drive, if you come from the bush your probably miles in front of city cousins in car craft. Most Country kids can handle a car pretty well, but roads skills is what they lack, how to handle traffic, how to drive to the conditions. That 2nd one takes a few frights to put the skill levels, ego etc back into perspective.

Country kids who drive a car well are over represented in statistics from constantly pushing to what they think are their limits.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I'm not saying you do or do not know how to drive, if you come from the bush your probably miles in front of city cousins in car craft. Most Country kids can handle a car pretty well, but roads skills is what they lack, how to handle traffic, how to drive to the conditions. That 2nd one takes a few frights to put the skill levels, ego etc back into perspective.

Country kids who drive a car well are over represented in statistics from constantly pushing to what they think are their limits.

for the last 2 years i been workin in brisbane driving from one side of town to the other and have to put up with peak hour traffic everyday to and from work for 1 hour. i hate it but i did teach me to be a ***** of a driver LOL.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Without disputing this finding, what about crashes that did not cause serious injury? Statistically speaking the number of cases studied is on the small side to be drawing absolute conclusions, even if they are not likely to vary a great deal (eg 3% might become 5%).

Also it says that 3% of p-platers drove cars that would not be allowed under Vic p-plate restrictions, now I suppose there would be a few more that would be picked up by the NSW restrictions (eg 253s) but for such a small percentage who would actually be affected why are you guys getting so upset by all this? Is it so hard to go a couple of years in a car that is cheaper to buy and insure, uses less fuel, attracts less attention from police, less likely to be stolen…

Heeno have you thought that you might be in a small minority experience wise? Even in the country plenty of people don’t get the paddock-bomb or on-farm driving experience you have had.

I would say this is because the serious and fatal category are the ones that must be reported and have police attendance and there for a more reliable figure. Anything less and you are missing the accidents that don't get reported of which I would say there are plenty. Would make for a more interesting study though.

Originally Posted by Heeno

Don't get me wrong i couldn't give a stuff if they pass this law, its just a bit unfair on all the newby's comming through who now have to check this stupid bloody thing everytime they see a car they like. and if you don't have the net lol your screwed

Don't forget all those who lose their P's after july 11 are also affected.
As for needing the internet, why? any V8 or more, any turbo or supercharged car, any hipo 6 (porsche,BMW, merc) and any performance modified car is banned.... why is access to the list that critical....

Originally Posted by Heeno

ummm... the part that says you have your licence now you can drive a car! mabey thats where...

and on that same license there will now be attached a condition, same as you can't drive trucks, semi's, buses or motorbikes on a car license, so you won't be able to drive V8s etc etc

Originally Posted by Heeno

hey man where did i say i was a hoon?? on paddocks with an ol gemini i am but thats on a paddock with an ol gemini!

and this P plater thought itwas ok on a big open sports field as well
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/spooky/sigma.htm


again I must agree with red

[Biggoggs]

yea i know, but it just ****es me off when you get told by randoms, that your a sh!t driver just because of your age, i donno just got a bit emotional about it.

While age can correlate with experience, is it really `experience' that needs to be addressed? 30-40yr old men who don't bother indicating, curse at anyone who doesn't drive perfectly, and be heavy on the pedal seem to create problems too

wait till we meet up for a drive one day, you'll see im not like everyother 19 yo that thinks holding your foot flat to the floor is the only way to drive, i got that out of my system a long time ago.

Same here, although I admit I do occasionally open it up, with on the time and place considered. As I said in one of the other P-plate discussions, a case of `been there, done that', it's just that there seems to be less `appropriate places' thesedays, where people are getting caught out.

I think most people have had some sort of `hoon experience', including experienced drivers (I'm sure you were young once too). I know a few `idiot provisionals', none of which drive v8's or turbos- but that doesn't stop them from going through a few sets of rear wheels in a year.
To the older drivers who have personal experience, didn't you get that experience in a high-power vehicle?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by devil cv8

again I must agree with red

Thats spooky :

[TURBOTAXI]

I will keep repeating the fact there is NO EVIDENCE that supports this.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by Heeno

your all the same, you think that P means no experience, how do you know the experience some of these guys have? i spose the 8 years experience i had befor i got my P plates means nothing eh? 19 now so whats that... 10 years experience, same as a 27 year old...get over yourselves, my gf just got her P's and she would have to be one of the safest drivers i know behind the wheel of an SV6()

No, you don't have the same experience as a 27 year old. I don't care if you've got your CAMS licence/been racing Formula Ford for 5 years/been shooting roos with a .308 while steering with your knee and telling your gf what gear to whack it in while you work the clutch. These have NOTHING to do with driving on the road. Sure you can drive a car, but most monkeys could be trained to. Being able to drive has little to do with reading the road. I reckon I can drive alright, I can pull it in when things go pearshaped, I can drive a car I'm used to to it's limits, but I'm constantly seeing things on the road that make me re-think how I drive on the road.

I'd go on, but I think the point is proven, by yourself as well as other people.

Originally Posted by outback_ute

you can’t argue with the intention behind the restrictions. Of course you should be learning how to drive in a “shopping trolley” not a road rocket, it is like learning to fly in a Cessna not an F16. Likewise you can’t just go hop behind the wheel of a B-double.

Comparing the difference between a normal car and a performance car to a cessna compared to a f-16 is COMPLETELY WRONG. Going from a slow aircraft to a faster one is nothing like going from a slow car to a faster one. Faster planes have higher stall speeds and have to be going faster all the time which means the pilot has less time to react to everything, performance cars can go just as slowly as any other car. You cant go and jump in a B-double because IT IS NOT A CAR.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

performance cars can go just as slowly as any other car..

I see we have spent a lot of bum time steering turning launching and stopping HiPo cars, haven't we, and thats exactly why no-one with a clue wants inexperienced drivers let loose in them.

The Cessna to F16 analogy is pretty close to the mark.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I see we have spent a lot of bum time steering turning launching and stopping HiPo cars, haven't we, and thats exactly why no-one with a clue wants inexperienced drivers let loose in them.

The Cessna to F16 analogy is pretty close to the mark.

_

[Biggoggs]

An F-16 is safer than a Cessna- it travels at a higher altitude, can safely eject its passenger, and can get out of bad situations with two AIM-120 AMRAAMs and better air maneuverability. The more responsible airforce pilot responds better in an emergency, knows the individuality of his vehicle attracts attention, and less likely to dump a few million dollars worth of aircraft into someone's backyard

[Dave_au]

The F16 pilot has about 15 times more hours of experience than a general aviation pilot too.

[RED_EL_XR8]

An F16 in the hands of a junior pilot, yeah that'd be safe, about as safe as a chimp with a machine gun, or as safe as an inexperienced driver in a powerful car. :

[Heeno]

so how'd this go from cars to planes?? lol

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

so how'd this go from cars to planes?? lol

Clearly modern teens lack concentration span! :evil_laug I blame the wiggles and video games lol. :evil_laug

[PULLY6]

We do not lack the attentio.... oooh lets go play on the swings...


(thanks for that one dan!)

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

An F16 in the hands of a junior pilot, yeah that'd be safe, about as safe as a chimp with a machine gun, or as safe as an inexperienced driver in a powerful car. :

Its not the same, it takes much more skill to fly a high speed aircraft because they can't travel slowly and it can be difficult to slow them down when your trying to land. A 350z or xr8 can travel at the speed limit like any other car and they are not any harder to drive at these speeds.

[Biggoggs]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Its not the same, it takes much more skill to fly a high speed aircraft because they can't travel slowly and it can be difficult to slow them down when your trying to land. A 350z or xr8 can travel at the speed limit like any other car and they are not any harder to drive at these speeds.

I don't think he's an aviation enthusiast, dude

[2IC]

Originally Posted by 2IC

ummmmm... a PROVISIONAL licence only says "I can read the road rules book and am just old enough to be behind the wheel, I am still learning, please be patient" NOT "I am a prefessional driver that can handle anything a car can throw at me..."

The whole argument that ppl will be stupid in any type of car seems to me to defeat itself... if they are going to be stupid regardless, I would rather it be in a slower, more docile car than a hi powered one.

Heeno dude, settle down..... I didn't realise I had said you were a sh*t driver.... I thought I said P plates indicate a lack of experience on the road. I am only 24 mate and I know I'm still learning and will continue to learn for a long time yet.

Nor do I think that young ppl should drive heaps of crap. Instead of spending how ever many thousands of dollars on a hi powered engine, why not put that money into safety items, then when you (and that's a general you not a you in particular) have a bit more experience dealing with other bad drivers and negotiating traffic, start upping the power levels.

[Biggoggs]

Originally Posted by 2IC

Nor do I think that young ppl should drive heaps of crap. Instead of spending how ever many thousands of dollars on a hi powered engine, why not put that money into safety items, then when you (and that's a general you not a you in particular) have a bit more experience dealing with other bad drivers and negotiating traffic, start upping the power levels.

What about someone `with a high-powered engine' and a car that can handle it? There's some assumption that someone driving a v8 or turbo is going to be pushing the vehicle at every corner :huh:

I might also be slightly bias here, but there's only one provisional I know that drives like a middle-age soccer mum, let alone `the elderly' :P

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Its not the same, it takes much more skill to fly a high speed aircraft because they can't travel slowly and it can be difficult to slow them down when your trying to land. A 350z or xr8 can travel at the speed limit like any other car and they are not any harder to drive at these speeds.

yeah but kick the *** out big time with some over exuberance on a big V8 and its a lot harder to recover than a spun wheel on a 120Y (<--- wet day required.) :hihi:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

yeah but kick the *** out big time with some over exuberance on a big V8 and its a lot harder to recover than a spun wheel on a 120Y (<--- wet day required.) :hihi:

Its just as bad with all the 6cylinder falcons and commodores. Lots of cars they banned like porsche boxters and 350z are much safer than anything holden or ford have made.

[MITCHAY]

I would think that under normal and safe driving conditions a commodore or falcon will get out of shape easier than a porsche, skyline etc etc.