twin charged ba i6?

[fat4D]

so a thought that has been playing with me ever sine my girl friend test drove a new Polo GTI, first up its such an awesome package i also had a drive an wow what a package.

Anyway to the question is the twin charged idea (turbo and supercharged) something that only works on small engines? been trying to imagine what it would be like to drive a current xr6 turbo with a supercharger thrown into the mix? anyone else wondered this? and is it at all possible?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by fat4D

so a thought that has been playing with me ever sine my girl friend test drove a new Polo GTI, first up its such an awesome package i also had a drive an wow what a package.

Anyway to the question is the twin charged idea (turbo and supercharged) something that only works on small engines? been trying to imagine what it would be like to drive a current xr6 turbo with a supercharger thrown into the mix? anyone else wondered this? and is it at all possible?

I have definitely thought about it! Would drive like a big block, with huge torque but also huge top end without the lag.

Some people refer to it as 'compound boosting'

VW were most definitely not the first to do this. Lancia did it to their rally car in the 1980s and i'm sure there are more examples.

People are doing it to the Mustang in the states. Hellion make a system. About 1000hp!

http://www.hellionpowersystems.com/

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...its/index.html

[fat4D]

wow thats crazy power. wonder with already have an intercooler etc how much it would actually take to do it. i dont know much about superchargers (anything really) would love to do it. i suppos you would really only need a smallish supercharger just to get the car going?

[Auturbo6]

They only use twin charging to compensate for the small capacity of the engine. In my opinion, a complete waste of time on a falcon. On a auto XR6 turbo, a better torque converter would over come low down lag....

[fat4D]

yeah i got manual so lag isnt overly a problem, just think it would be really cool

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by Auturbo6

They only use twin charging to compensate for the small capacity of the engine. In my opinion, a complete waste of time on a falcon. On a auto XR6 turbo, a better torque converter would over come low down lag....

OP owns a manual.
Besides, how would a better(explain??) torque converter reduce lag? As far as I can see the xr6t will always have lag and no torque converter will change that?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Auturbo6

They only use twin charging to compensate for the small capacity of the engine. In my opinion, a complete waste of time on a falcon. On a auto XR6 turbo, a better torque converter would over come low down lag....

Positive displacement (PD) superchargers are fantastically responsive. A turbo, just cannot match that instant grunt. Turbos are more efficient. Not the 'free energy BS' either. In simple, rough terms, turbo's use about 1/4 of the energy to be spun by the (turbine restricted exhaust) compared to the crank driven supercharger.

Combine both excellent technologies and the result is huge specific power and torque outputs. More importantly, higher 'average' specific outputs. Low down grunt and top end rush.

A good book to read on the subject is "Forced Induction Performance Tuning" by A.Grahame Bell who originates from Maitland NSW and has masses of practical experience. In it's field, it is probably the best for content, or near best selling book by volume.

[Auturbo6]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

OP owns a manual.
Besides, how would a better(explain??) torque converter reduce lag? As far as I can see the xr6t will always have lag and no torque converter will change that?

Fully sick burnout man, does the Bullet have a twin charger.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Auturbo6

They only use twin charging to compensate for the small capacity of the engine. In my opinion, a complete waste of time on a falcon. On a auto XR6 turbo, a better torque converter would over come low down lag....

I see what you are saying. ie get you into the powerband sooner. But a bigger convertor is just really a band aid solution which brings fuel economy and throttle response penalties.

A smaller turbo, would overcome low down lag. But restrict top end power.

[fat4D]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Positive displacement (PD) superchargers are fantastically responsive. A turbo, just cannot match that instant grunt. Turbos are more efficient. Not the 'free energy BS' either. In simple, rough terms, turbo's use about 1/4 of the energy to be spun by the (turbine restricted exhaust) compared to the crank driven supercharger.

Combine both excellent technologies and the result is huge specific power and torque outputs. More importantly, higher 'average' specific outputs. Low down grunt and top end rush.

A good book to read on the subject is "Forced Induction Performance Tuning" by A.Grahame Bell who originates from Maitland NSW and has masses of practical experience. In it's field, it is probably the best for content, or near best selling book by volume.

is this a published book? might get it myself sounds like a good read

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by fat4D

is this a published book? might get it myself sounds like a good read

Definitely published! As I said, it's probably one of the best selling books in that field. Bestseller for 25 years. Reprinted ~20 times!Find it on Amazon. Corrected name spelling below.

"Forced Induction Performance Tuning 1st edition" by A.Graham Bell
"Four stroke Performance Tuning 3rd edition" by A.Graham Bell

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Positive displacement (PD) superchargers are fantastically responsive. A turbo, just cannot match that instant grunt. Turbos are more efficient. Not the 'free energy BS' either. In simple, rough terms, turbo's use about 1/4 of the energy to be spun by the (turbine restricted exhaust) compared to the crank driven supercharger.

Combine both excellent technologies and the result is huge specific power and torque outputs. More importantly, higher 'average' specific outputs. Low down grunt and top end rush.

A good book to read on the subject is "Forced Induction Performance Tuning" by A.Grahame Bell who originates from Maitland NSW and has masses of practical experience. In it's field, it is probably the best for content, or near best selling book by volume.

A Grahame Bell sounds familiar... isn't he the bloke that invented the telephone?

Has anyone just tried bolting an off the shelf N/A Barra i6 supercharger kit onto a turbo motor.. It should fit nicely as it fits up on the intake side and not in the way of the turbo/etc. But what happens when the supercharger is making boost from idle when the turbo is producing none.. the turbo spins backwards?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

A Grahame Bell sounds familiar... isn't he the bloke that invented the telephone?

Yep! But that fella went by his full name of Alexander Grahame Bell. This fella only A.Graham Bell. Most likely deliberately to help with book searching / or just got fed up!

[fat4D]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

A Grahame Bell sounds familiar... isn't he the bloke that invented the telephone?

Has anyone just tried bolting an off the shelf N/A Barra i6 supercharger kit onto a turbo motor.. It should fit nicely as it fits up on the intake side and not in the way of the turbo/etc. But what happens when the supercharger is making boost from idle when the turbo is producing none.. the turbo spins backwards?

yeah thats what i was thinking about the supercharger is on the other side, so you would need to just have a stock air intake set up not cold/hot side pipping system

[fat4D]

just had another thought would this play up with the computer as it would be reading different boost levels and stuff?

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by fat4D

just had another thought would this play up with the computer as it would be reading different boost levels and stuff?

Flash tuner should be able to sort out the funny boost curve this setup would have? Would need to have the fuel map feeding the injectors hard and fast from idle to avoid leaning out, i'd guess? When turbo and supercharger have both kicked in, probably need some very high flowing regulator/injectors to keep the engine fueled properly..

[fat4D]

god i wish i had the extra money to seriously look at this, yes there may not be that much of a power advantage over spending simular or even less money on the engine and just upping the boost but damn it would be cool

[mik]

i think they can do the instant throttle response with a single apllication if they want to, but smooth power delivery on a big torque engine saves on driveline and is safer for joe average as well imo, i`ve been in a big power supra with a large single turbo , no lag just pins you instantly, absolutely brutal.
most of the 2 stroke detroit diesels in trucks are super charged and turbo charged, have been for years , its not a new concept.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by fat4D

yeah thats what i was thinking about the supercharger is on the other side, so you would need to just have a stock air intake set up not cold/hot side pipping system

stock air intake set up?.. I think you'd need the two plumbed together feeding into the throttle body?

[gaz084]

Im doing somthing a little different at the moment but its the same theory behind it.It has been done before,im using a bigger than needed centrifugal procharger and then adding an external wastegate to it,so it bleeds of boost providing it where ever you set your wastegate at,or pulley it up too say 20 psi and have the wastegate come on at say 7psi,as the more power you have up top with these centrifugals the more you have down low,and when the wastegate kicks in it will look as if there is a turbo in the mix when you look at the dyno chart depending on how and when you want the wategate to start bleeding.

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by Auturbo6

Fully sick burnout man, does the Bullet have a twin charger.

Why dint you stick to the topic at hand, rather than my avatar? It's got nothing to do with twin charging.
I want to hear your take on what I said up there.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by gaz084

Im doing somthing a little different at the moment but its the same theory behind it.It has been done before,im using a bigger than needed centrifugal procharger and then adding an external wastegate to it,so it bleeds of boost providing it where ever you set your wastegate at,or pulley it up too say 20 psi and have the wastegate come on at say 7psi,as the more power you have up top with these centrifugals the more you have down low,and when the wastegate kicks in it will look as if there is a turbo in the mix when you look at the dyno chart depending on how and when you want the wategate to start bleeding.

Some don't agree with that. But, I think it's a good way to get the most out of the centrifugal type blowers. Most important is keeping the maximum s/c speed below rated rpm.

Another Mustang install with Vortech and Blowoff.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...all/index.html

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Flash tuner should be able to sort out the funny boost curve this setup would have? Would need to have the fuel map feeding the injectors hard and fast from idle to avoid leaning out, i'd guess? When turbo and supercharger have both kicked in, probably need some very high flowing regulator/injectors to keep the engine fueled properly..

The air inlet tract is as follows.
Inlet > Filter > Turbo Inlet > Turbo Compressor Outlet > IC > Blower Inlet > Blower Outlet > IC > Manifold > Engine intake.

Between the Turbo outlet and the Blower Inlet tubing you would need a blow off valve to recirculate back to before the turbo inlet.

Between the Super outlet and the manifold, you would need another blow off valve, and / or possibly use the bypass valve (if it is built in) to recirculate the air back to the supercharger inlet.

The boost referencing for the blowoffs / bypass is the hard part. More so for the turbo to get them both in synch.

There is a reason it's called compound boosting. You don't want to have the turbo upstream with 1Bar boost and the s/c further compressing it to 1Bar of boost. ie 4 atmosphere's worth of air due to being doubled then doubled again.

[gaz084]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Some don't agree with that. But, I think it's a good way to get the most out of the centrifugal type blowers. Most important is keeping the maximum s/c speed below rated rpm.

Another Mustang install with Vortech and Blowoff.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...all/index.html

Everyone has there opinions......i think its a great idea,thats the same article i got the idea from

[roberts]

yes you should do it

i guess you could plumb it a couple of ways, I think turbo into one side of a large front mount and a side mount supercharger into the other, than one large outlet at the top to throttle body(like the aftermarket 300zx coolers). Lets face it you will have a lot of piping, the intake and pod for the turbo facing forward into the driver front and supercharger intake facing backwards on the pass side this would be a street/show of to you mates set up

you could also plumb it turbo - front mount - supercharger - intake but then you supercharger isn't intercooled
or supercharger - turbo inlet - intercooler - intake manifold
but you would struggle to get a clean look, depends what gear you run using a side mount pumping into a huge turbo would work well and bring the turbo onto boost at idle.

you want over 1000hp right

[fat4D]

if money wasnt an issue i would love to do it. have thought about how to try and set it up and have 2 intercoolers but then the logistics would be difficult, whether you do a set up with a front mount and then a top mounted cooler like the territory turbo for the second

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by fat4D

if money wasnt an issue i would love to do it. have thought about how to try and set it up and have 2 intercoolers but then the logistics would be difficult, whether you do a set up with a front mount and then a top mounted cooler like the territory turbo for the second

Run a water to air intercooler as the secondary one?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Many years ago I remember reading a car mag with an add for Jap front cuts / engines for sale etc.

On the list there was a factory Diahatsu?? / Suzuki?? engine that was well under a litre, like 660cc or 990cc that was 'twin charged'....

Would make for a nice go-kart engine swap lol.

[fat4D]

lol, yeah i got the idea after test driving the new polo and that thing is seriously quick. then the wat if came to my head and it would make one mental falcon