Advice Needed for Accident Victim

now · 01-01-2006, 12:14 PM

Hi everyone

My wife was in an accident on Thursday. An older man (in his 70's) went through a red light and t-boned my mother-in-law's car. My wife was passenger, she took the full impact. The car was slammed into the traffic light. (Write-off.) Fortunately, an Ambulance was at the intersection, and saw everything, as did many other witnesses. The front passenger door had to be ripped off to get my wife out.

The man had a dog in his 4WD that he was taking to the vet. He didn't slam on his brakes or attempt to swerve to miss the car my wife was in.

My wife has heaps of brusing, stitches to her ear, we've had 2 days in hospitals for checkups and x-rays. Her head is swollen and really banged up.

To top it off, the side air bags in the car (Toyota Corolla Levin Hatch) did not even go off, nor did the front air bags. This obviously would have helped lessen the impact and injuries.

My questions:

1. Is there legal action we can take for medical costs, injuries, etc? Or is this just a waste of time?

2. Is there action we can take against Toyota for the failure of the air bags?

3. If my mother-in-law gets less than market value of the car from Suncorp, can we take legal action against anyone to recover the difference?

Thanks!

XplosiveR6 · 01-01-2006, 12:30 PM

which country/ state do you live in?

1. in Victoria we have the TAC which is paid with the registration which covers all medical costs

parawolf · 01-01-2006, 12:40 PM

1) depends on your state, as already mentioned, in Vic we have TAC as part of your rego

2) I would certainly want to be asking Toyota that question, if the car was T-Boned and the side airbags didn't go off, i'd want to know why

3) You can always take legal action if you want to pay for it. However you might not get anything because of what the policy states. The court may argue you have no grounds due to the policy being agreed to at being below market value and that it is the owners option to insure at either 'market rate' or 'agreed value'. Speak to a solicitor.

gtfpv · 01-01-2006, 12:52 PM

i think your 1st 2 questions are valid . the greenslip (compulsory 3rd party is insurance for injury expenses. the manufacturer could be liable to pay compensation for airbag failure . see a lawyer . do it now pay the fee ring the insurances get as much advice as you can . the people and government agencies employed and payed to tell you thiese things are playing golf . they wont pay what your wife is entitled to because of all the policies insurances etc that the cars owners insurances cover youll have to follow it up . ask the police what to do as well. good luck . you will find that the system and the people that run it are bigger criminals than most people in gaol. get legal advice asap. use every avenue you can think of.

XA-Coupe · 01-01-2006, 05:54 PM

Go and see a solicitor immediately. Even if you are covered by the TAC or other body, to stop yourself getting shafted you do need proper legal advice. I feel dirty for saying nice things about anyone in the legal profession ( except Jac

) but really... it's in your interest.

347Stroker · 01-01-2006, 06:51 PM

If you are in Brisbane, and seeing you are insured with Suncorp, its a fair bet, let me know and I will give you the details of a very good attorney that you can trust....

Big Mike · 01-01-2006, 07:22 PM

If his car was registered, of course the compulsary 3rd party property insurance will cover/reimberse ALL your medical expenses. You may however need to initiate a claim - ring them, although I don't recall who underwrites CTP at the moment - it might be Alliance off the top of my head.

Everyone has this idea airbags are run of magical crash sensors in the doors and bumper bars or something - I'm sick of explaining it - an airbag system is triggered by a G-force measuring device. Squillions of dollars are spent on research to establish at what point the G-forces of the impact are deamed significant enough that the massive force of an air-bag inflating will incur less pain and injury than without it. As the car was hit from the side, OF COURSE the front bags would not be deployed - its a Toyota not a Nazi occupant pulping device.
Unfortunately there are limitations with G-force measuring devices, and, be it thus limitation or what is required to save a life, if the impact is NOT DEAD ON SQUARE - the devices won't deploy.
Travelling forward an offset frontal crash will trigger, but an impact from 10 or 20 degrees off may very well NOT trigger the device. This will be explained thouroughly in the manual, though I doubt you're in any mood for fine print. While the car may be a devestating wreck, the impact may have not been sufficient for the airbags (a "supplementary restraint system") to have been deployed, or it may have been slightly offset, or - yes - there could have been a major failure. However one's opinion of what quantifies an air-bag deployment from an horrific wreck may well differ from proven statistics - and even if the impact was sufficient, if it was SLIGHTLY offset their fine print will surely elliviate any legal obligations on behalf of said car maker.

Having said that - if in purchasing the car the salesperson specifically implied its occupants will be cucooned in a peaceful blanket of cotton wadding should any impact be impending, there are documented cases of succesfully taking legal action against that misleading information. And having been in the car industry and hearing what gets bandied about at product launches and drummed into the salespeople, I would highly recommend pursuing this angle!!

As for an insurance payout - if your contract says market value and they make an offer you feel is low, then you can get a "quote" from ANY car dealer to present them with, or take legal action with - and yes, you should get what is oweing - you have a contract for "market value" and you are entitled to it!

On a more humanitarian note, I hope your misses and mother-in-law are ok and wish them and you all the best in their recovery - while the other driver's senility may excuse him legally at some latter stage, priority one is the healing process and its NOT a good way to start off the New Year. Keep us posted how things unravel and like I said all the best wishes for the immediate future...

red_hotxr6 · 01-01-2006, 08:02 PM

I was involved in an accident where i was the passenger in the car about three years ago. A taxi hit us. Went to an accident lawyer, no win no pay, took about 2 years but i did get a pay out.I was not as injured as your wife but i do think you should be able to sue at least.

01-01-2006, 08:24 PM

You have a lot off work ahead but it's worth it. Toyota has a hell of a lot to answer for. BE CAREFULL!!!!! DON"T LET TOYOTA TAKE THE CAR!!!!!!!!!! This IS a very big deal and it will cause a huge ripple in the waters. I have worked for toyota and know people who are still there. Toyota won't like this news and will want to keep it quiet!!!They will also want to know why as they do care about customer satisfaction!!! GO get a lawyer or Barrister!!!!! Good luck to the missus and I hope she is ok, cause that is the MAIN priority at the moment. Get her well then go for it my friend!!! What year model was the car, etc, has it been in an accident before??? Many questions must be answered.

MO · 01-01-2006, 09:58 PM

Get a lawyer...asap.

**Stav** · 01-01-2006, 09:58 PM

You have rights.Get your wife to some good doctors fast.Even apart from the trauma of initial impact she may be suffering mentally from post traumatic stress disorder....If she cant function properly she needs compensation.Get a compensation laywer.

apolloxbgt · 01-01-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mike

If his car was registered, of course the compulsary 3rd party property insurance will cover/reimberse ALL your medical expenses. You may however need to initiate a claim - ring them, although I don't recall who underwrites CTP at the moment - it might be Alliance off the top of my head.

Everyone has this idea airbags are run of magical crash sensors in the doors and bumper bars or something - I'm sick of explaining it - an airbag system is triggered by a G-force measuring device. Squillions of dollars are spent on research to establish at what point the G-forces of the impact are deamed significant enough that the massive force of an air-bag inflating will incur less pain and injury than without it. As the car was hit from the side, OF COURSE the front bags would not be deployed - its a Toyota not a Nazi occupant pulping device.
Unfortunately there are limitations with G-force measuring devices, and, be it thus limitation or what is required to save a life, if the impact is NOT DEAD ON SQUARE - the devices won't deploy.
Travelling forward an offset frontal crash will trigger, but an impact from 10 or 20 degrees off may very well NOT trigger the device. This will be explained thouroughly in the manual, though I doubt you're in any mood for fine print. While the car may be a devestating wreck, the impact may have not been sufficient for the airbags (a "supplementary restraint system") to have been deployed, or it may have been slightly offset, or - yes - there could have been a major failure. However one's opinion of what quantifies an air-bag deployment from an horrific wreck may well differ from proven statistics - and even if the impact was sufficient, if it was SLIGHTLY offset their fine print will surely elliviate any legal obligations on behalf of said car maker.

Having said that - if in purchasing the car the salesperson specifically implied its occupants will be cucooned in a peaceful blanket of cotton wadding should any impact be impending, there are documented cases of succesfully taking legal action against that misleading information. And having been in the car industry and hearing what gets bandied about at product launches and drummed into the salespeople, I would highly recommend pursuing this angle!!

As for an insurance payout - if your contract says market value and they make an offer you feel is low, then you can get a "quote" from ANY car dealer to present them with, or take legal action with - and yes, you should get what is oweing - you have a contract for "market value" and you are entitled to it!

On a more humanitarian note, I hope your misses and mother-in-law are ok and wish them and you all the best in their recovery - while the other driver's senility may excuse him legally at some latter stage, priority one is the healing process and its NOT a good way to start off the New Year. Keep us posted how things unravel and like I said all the best wishes for the immediate future...

This is exactly right,it's amazing how many people think airbags are majic life savers.As said mabey the blame lies with the sales people for the misimformation,but air bags as a rule only work on frontal collisions.

Keepleft · 01-01-2006, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasty

You have a lot off work ahead but it's worth it. Toyota has a hell of a lot to answer for. BE CAREFULL!!!!! DON"T LET TOYOTA TAKE THE CAR!!!!!!!!!! This IS a very big deal and it will cause a huge ripple in the waters. I have worked for toyota and know people who are still there. Toyota won't like this news and will want to keep it quiet!!!They will also want to know why as they do care about customer satisfaction!!! GO get a lawyer or Barrister!!!!! Good luck to the missus and I hope she is ok, cause that is the MAIN priority at the moment. Get her well then go for it my friend!!! What year model was the car, etc, has it been in an accident before??? Many questions must be answered.

Arrrrgggh!

now · 02-01-2006, 12:46 AM

In relation to Air Bags, in my wife's accident, there were 2 points of impact.

1. The front passenger door, where the 4WD hit at about 60km/hour.

2. The front of the car is now a V-shape, where the car was pushed into a traffic light.

The Toyota Corolla had front AND side air bags. There's a v-shape in the front passenger door, and a v-shape into the engine at the front of the car.

NO airbags at all went off.

Both my wife and my mother-in-law have severe bruising, my wife has a banged up head with stitches in her ear.

If what some people have said in the previous comments about air bags is true, then what's the point of them? Shouldn't they have protected my wife in this situation?

gtfpv · 02-01-2006, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by now

In relation to Air Bags, in my wife's accident, there were 2 points of impact.

1. The front passenger door, where the 4WD hit at about 60km/hour.

2. The front of the car is now a V-shape, where the car was pushed into a traffic light.

The Toyota Corolla had front AND side air bags. There's a v-shape in the front passenger door, and a v-shape into the engine at the front of the car.

NO airbags at all went off.

Both my wife and my mother-in-law have severe bruising, my wife has a banged up head with stitches in her ear.

If what some people have said in the previous comments about air bags is true, then what's the point of them? Shouldn't they have protected my wife in this situation?

mate it sounds like they should've went off. the way they work is they have mechanical sensors in them , which upon compression go off . but you must be aware that an air bag that goes off will put someone in hospital with a broken nose and or missing teeth and cornia injuries . they are only meant to activate to stop death and serious injury and are designed accordingly . this is why children shouldn't sit in the front because an airbag detonation could kill them . but in your wifes case they sound like they should of deployed . an engineer will ned to inspect the damage to the vehicle .

apolloxbgt · 02-01-2006, 01:08 AM

If the intial impact was on the side of the car,which has no bearing on the airbags,then the frontal impact speed would have been reduced.By all means chase up the insurance for the medical bills and car,but as far as the airbags go it would have to be a V E R Y stong case to ever prove a conclusive failure.

gtfpv · 02-01-2006, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

If the intial impact was on the side of the car,which has no bearing on the airbags,then the frontal impact speed would have been reduced.By all means chase up the insurance for the medical bills and car,but as far as the airbags go it would have to be a V E R Y stong case to ever prove a conclusive failure.

side airbags are designed for side impact collissions..!!!!!!!!!!!!

XR Martin · 02-01-2006, 01:15 AM

Side airbags are one of the fastest reacting devices made, they deploy in 20 milliseconds, half of that is the actual sensor reacting.

Id also be interested in why it didnt deploy, definately contact Toyota asking them to investigate.

apolloxbgt · 02-01-2006, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

side airbags are designed for side impact collissions..!!!!!!!!!!!!

Airbag sensors are on the front of the car,not the side,they are designed for heavy frontal impacts.

XR Martin · 02-01-2006, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

Airbag sensors are on the front of the car,not the side,they are designed for heavy frontal impacts.

Side airbag sensors are in the door pillars, and are designed to go off in side impacts.

clontarf_x · 02-01-2006, 04:46 PM

If this is true about the location of side impact sensors then that explains why the sides didnt go off "hit the pssenger door".

As for the fronts. You really do need a high-speed crash to set tem off. Merely denting your front bar on a traffic light will not set them off. IIRC my manual says they usually only activate at total speeds (not vehicle speeds) of over 60km/hr ?

Keepleft · 02-01-2006, 06:20 PM

Martin, showing United States market vehicle crash-behaviour examples is somewhat different to Australia's United Nations Economic Commission for Europe - Global Technical Regulations which we in turn adopt and use.

Each market behaviour vehicle crash will therefore not necessarily be the same in outcome, despite being the same model car in each market. Fitment components vary in quality and performance according to those market rules.

Yank airbags for instance are somewhat different to our own. Our own by the way are arguable safer, and here I agree with our academics. That said, the Yank regs change with time as they realise 'the foreigner' actually do things better sometimes.

One problem some vehicle owners create is to fit seat-covers on vehicles with side-air bags that are installed sometimes into the rear seat back. Not smart, but I've seen it done where a full seat cover, effectively covers the side air bag position.

Sometimes a side-airbag deployment can cause a greater injury than if it had not been a standard item, this had been US experience for bags in that market.

NB - You have the world market administered at UN level, then you have the North American market, for U.S, Canada, Mexico et al. Slowly the US harmonises with world regulations, it is appropraite they do so. US vehicle lighting for example is appallingly 'dumb', generally.

XR Martin · 03-01-2006, 12:09 AM

All I was showing was a side impact test showing side airbags deployed, to prove that it had nothing to do with a frontal impact as some people appeared to believe they activate in a said impact.

gtfpv · 03-01-2006, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

All I was showing was a side impact test showing side airbags deployed, to prove that it had nothing to do with a frontal impact as some people appeared to believe they activate in a said impact.

yeah i know what you mean . cant believe what some people are saying here . i hear that some horses are starting to come out standard with side impact bags now . not for hurdles though .

py:

LTDHO · 03-01-2006, 07:36 AM

Can you get pictures of the car. Judging by the sound of the impact the aitrbags shouldn't have gone off.
Getting a lawyer is only going to waste your time and build false hopes. Your wife has cut and bruses? Consider yourself (and herself) lucky is wasn't worst, airbags are to prevent the worst, not be activated on every smash. They stop major injury and death.

Suncorp are paying you and you need to be sure that they pay you the value of the vehicle. You can not sue for the difference.

If I were you I'd make sure that the other driver is charged and has their licence taken of them.

snypereb · 03-01-2006, 10:10 AM

Side airbags should have gone off im pretty not the front because it was a side impact probably worth taking it to a solicitor and going though the manufactoror to because it may have been faulty go through your solicitor first get the advice of him/her!!

Big Mike · 03-01-2006, 11:53 AM

I can't believe what some of you lot are saying honestly.

American airbags are designed to detonate more quickly - as seatbelts are not required in all states, nor worn a whole lot in the US. A sweeping statement perhaps, but I'm trying to keep things simple here. In Australia, where seatbelts are law, the airbag will delay in order to "catch" the occupant, after their seatbelt as restrained them, if required the pyrotechnic device retracts the belt, and the load limiters release it as the webbing stretches. NOT ALL NEW CARS HAVE PYROTECHNIC RECOIL THINGIES - NOT ALL CARS HAVE LOAD LIMITERS. I worked at Mitsubishi where they adopted both into ALL their cars a few years ago...

Cars DO NOT HAVE mechanical switches that close when crushed in an accident. They have G-Force sensing units. Devices that measure the FORCE - not the crash. If somehow you could catch a vehicle by its chassis and not crumple the front at all, the airbags COULD be deployed because its the force of the stoppage which is measured. NOT IN ANY WAY is the amount of distortion to the vehicle any factor in its deployment of seatbelt retractors or airbags.

Therefore theoretically a car CAN be sawn completely in half by a pole at high speed, and not detonate an airbag. Simillarly, a 4WD with non-SRS-compliant bullbar can slam his bar into a creek bed, which means slamming an extension of the chassis into a solid object, and can set off the airbags.

A speed of 60km/h IS NOT a set unit - however the Australian-spec cars are designed to detonate SRS devices at a certain amount of force - thus an impact of that kind of about 60 km/h into another car will cause about enough force. An impact into a solid concrete object may cause enough stopping force to deploy SRS devices at a much slower speed.

Get my drift?

The vehicle in question was hit in the DOOR. A door will bend and absorb much of the energy placed upon the capsule. Hitting it in the B pillar, which is inherantly much stronger, will cause a more violent force and thus probably set off the SIDE air bags as the g-forces would be much higher.

The frontal g-forces are measured with a different device, independant of the side systems. Hitting the light pole the car probably absorbed the pole, especially if it was dead on centre. Plenty of crush zone, and a heavy engine to move, before getting back to the occupancy capsule. If the light pole hit the chassis rail or something that wasn't designed to "give", then obviously a much greater force would have been experienced and the FRONTAL SRS sytems would have been deployed (seatbelt retractors, air bags, etc.)

In answer to your question what good are airbags - well they have a purpose and they can save lives, but getting to know HOW they work instead of all the fables you hear about mechanical switches and a soft cushiony feeling - it can be a concern. They are actually VERY VERY DANGEROUS and if it could possibly go off when not required it would be terrible. Fortunately it is impossible for an airbag to deploy for no reason, and as stated by someone else people MAY get broken noses, missing teeth, but without question they WILL recieve horrible burns to their face and arms and the powder they spread around is highly toxic - but the point is this: A burnt face and toxic powder in your lungs and eyes IS BETTER THAN what could happen - at that point where they ARE DISIGNED TO DETONATE. However, clearly they ARE NOT American "face bags" and they ARE NOT an inflatable pillow like you see in movies, and - while I'm not going to pretend I know ANY of the details of your wifes injuries or the extent of damage to the vehicles, it is possible that they could have been injured MUCH WORSE had the SRS system deployed.

Having said all that - by all means get it checked out, its a once-off system which is therefor impossible to test - so it COULD have been faulty, and you may get a lot of reimbersment, or you may initiate a massive global recall of Toyota vehicles or even a re-think of the legislation governing supplementary restraining systems. However, the car MAY VERY WELL HAVE PERFORMED EXACTLY AS INTENDED and its very integrity and sophistication could have saved the lives of your two loved ones.

Please take all that into consideration and have another think about whether the violent force of a MASSIVE explosion and the strong abrasive airbag material may have helped, or hindered their survival. I'm not trying to discredit your thoughts on the matter, just hoping that you and everyone else who read this may understand how these systems work and at what level of collision they can actually be of assistance.

Blue Ice · 03-01-2006, 06:48 PM

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...5E2862,00.html

Seen this in todays Herald Sun. She was fairly lucky too, car looks a bit of a mess.

The Stylist · 04-01-2006, 10:17 PM

Dr Laurie Sparke's comment sounds a bit weak in my opinion (above link). The thorax and head protecting side airbag in that black Commodore SHOULD have deployed in an accident like that, I hope that couple pursues some form of legal action.