6 cylinder LPG cars vs 4 cylinder petrol cars

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by prydey

do you read all the words or just the ones you want to see.

lets see 3 to 4 adults in comfort on a long journey with luggage, in one of these u beaut small cars of yours.

sure a small car can do it just as cheap, and cheaper but if i'm gong on a long journey and i've got a choice, i know which one i'd have.

also why do you struggle to believe that a dedicated gas falcon achieves what it does. maybe you assume that its a ba. at no point did i say this but going on your last few posts, you don't tend to read that well anyway. au's are a bit lighter and possibly do a little better on the juice than a ba.

I struggle to believe it because I've seen countless ones, being in the taxi industry, fail to acheive quoted city cycle figures, quoted highway cycle figures, quoted combined consumption figures and generally anything below 20L/100km combined average from day one.

And a Golf V will do it just as comfortably and spaceously as a Falcon will. I'm 6'2" and I have the same level of room and comfort in the rear seat of a Golf as I do in the back of a Falcon. Plus with the immense city-cycle advantage the Golf 2.0 TDI has, its got it all over a gas Ford. Same goes with the bigger Passat 2.0 TDI, Peugeot 307 and 407 HDi etc etc.

[Abacus]

I use a lot of LPG because I'v got a 5.0 windsor, the worst of the available VSI systems (Parnell), and most of my driving is inner Sydney stop/start driving.

Around town (Sydney, mainly inner west) I get about, 22.5L/100km although it can get as high as 26.0 if I'm stuck in traffic.

On the open road I average around 13.0L/100km.

But at the end of the day it all comes down to $/100km, not L/100km.

I put these sums in a post in the LPG forum:

In my case I do 30,000km pa.

Average consumption on petrol is around 18.5L/100km, and average consumption on gas is around 22.5L/100km.

LPG averages around 55c/L and petrol averages around $1.25/L

So, 30,000km on petrol costs around $6,938, and 30,000km on LPG is around $3,713

Therefore I save around $3,200 per year.

The cost of the conversion was about $4,200, less the $2,000 rebate = $2,200. Paypack period ws about 8 months.

Over 5 years I will save around $16,000, less the $2,200 installation cost, say $13,800.

Even if I only keep the car 3 years I'm still $7,400 ahead.

Now, a few years ago I had a Subaru Liberty 2.2. It used to average about 13.5L/100km around town. Over 30,000km it would have burned its way through 4,050L at a cost of $4,860. So even compared to that car the Falcon is saving over $1,000 per year. And the 5.0 Falcon craps all over the 2.2 Liberty for performance and interior space.

Basically, to get similar economy to an LPG Falcon you have to go to to a MUCH smaller petrol car, with all the trade-offs in interior space and comfort.

And you've gotta love the diesel comparisons in this thread. Sure, a little 307 diesel is going to cost less in fuel than a Falcon on LPG, but I don't think you'd be saving anything after you factor in service and spare parts costs. What's a set of brake rotors worth on those suckers?

[JC]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I struggle to believe it because I've seen countless ones, being in the taxi industry, fail to acheive quoted city cycle figures, quoted highway cycle figures, quoted combined consumption figures and generally anything below 20L/100km combined average from day one.

And a Golf V will do it just as comfortably and spaceously as a Falcon will. I'm 6'2" and I have the same level of room and comfort in the rear seat of a Golf as I do in the back of a Falcon. Plus with the immense city-cycle advantage the Golf 2.0 TDI has, its got it all over a gas Ford. Same goes with the bigger Passat 2.0 TDI, Peugeot 307 and 407 HDi etc etc.

You are only looking at one small aspect of a 6 cyl falcon vs 4 cyl diesel comparison. Try towing a 16ft caravan, or 18ft boat with a diesel powered golf - I'm sure you could (once). The falcon will do it easily. Most people that buy a falcon buy it because overall the parts, insurance and running costs are cheaper than an import - add gas to the equation and it's a no brainer - so you need to buy an extra set of spark plugs per year over petrol - the saving on one tank of gas over petrol equivalent pays for them.

If LPG powered falcons, in particular, weren't so good, why doesn't the taxi industry use diesel powered golf Vs etc? Because in the end, the falcon is cheaper to own and run and maintain.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by JC

You are only looking at one small aspect of a 6 cyl falcon vs 4 cyl diesel comparison. Try towing a 16ft caravan, or 18ft boat with a diesel powered golf - I'm sure you could (once). The falcon will do it easily. Most people that buy a falcon buy it because overall the parts, insurance and running costs are cheaper than an import - add gas to the equation and it's a no brainer - so you need to buy an extra set of spark plugs per year over petrol - the saving on one tank of gas over petrol equivalent pays for them.

If LPG powered falcons, in particular, weren't so good, why doesn't the taxi industry use diesel powered golf Vs etc? Because in the end, the falcon is cheaper to own and run and maintain.

The taxi industry uses what the law lets it use. I love when people try to compare their arguments to things restricted by regulations on what they're used. Taxis have to be Australian made vehicles. Ford Falcon, Mitsubishi 380, Toyota Camry and Toyota Aurion. They also have to be on LPG by law. Kinda makes it impossible to use anything else, doesn't it?

The Golf will tow it no issue. 320Nm @ 1750-4000rpm, 4500 redline. Gotta love diesel torque. I love how people try to say "oh my no the car is smaller then a Falcon so it can't do this," yet people in Europe tow caravans and thing in even smaller cars then a Golf. I mean nah, the world's most industrious, significant and technically advanced continent can't do something that a bunch of Aussies think isn't possible...

The myth that European cars are insanely expensive to repair and insure is, well, unfortunate. The Falcon is very good, there is no question, I'm a proponent of LPG Fords, but its not the best option. If I were spending 40k on a new car I'd not be getting an E-Gas Ford, put it that way. Don't forget you're not factoring in re-sale value. The Ford has none. The VWs etc have it in spades. Losing $25,000-$30,000 of the car's value in 3-4 years can easily out-weigh any potential fuel and maintenance savings.

[nugget378]

How is it I see quite a few toyota hiace type people mover vans as taxi's?
even a few mercedes and VW van's,if they are all illegal?

[JamesR]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Highway driving is effortless as well ... I used to have a small modified Proton hatch ... it was fun to drive ... but overlong distances it felt like it was a task to drive.

Pros of a small 4-cyl:
cost of rego is less.
easier to park
That's about it.

my 4cy Escort cost nearly $500 for rego.. and it weighs under a tonne.
also not very cheap to run.

id say the only Pros would be easier to park.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by nugget378

How is it I see quite a few toyota hiace type people mover vans as taxi's?
even a few mercedes and VW van's,if they are all illegal?

There is no Australian made van or people mover. Should be self explanitory.

[TEaaron]

I get 200k's per 55L tank.

I'm awesome. 6cyl FTW

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by la2or

what are the pros/cons of each?
lpg:
higher startup costs
higher maintenance repair costs
4 cylinder:
cheaper start up costs

C'mon "Ler" what's your next senseless, Forum wasting thread going to be?

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by Steffo

There is no Australian made van or people mover. Should be self explanitory.

Exactly why I asked,
Going off your previous post they wouldnt be allowed,but yet I do see them regularly..

[theunfairadvant]

Originally Posted by Steffo

There is no Australian made van or people mover. Should be self explanitory.

I thought Ford Transit was the one,
but not make in Australia.

I know there is a Ford Transit Bus that have got a F6 engine
in it with 6 speed auto that is being service by Alto Ford in St Leonards.

There is only 2 mechanics that is being train to do the service and everything,
no other mechanics can touch the Transit at all.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Exactly why I asked,
Going off your previous post they wouldnt be allowed,but yet I do see them regularly..

Sorry, this being the internet its hard to judge sarcasm. The reason there are Hiaces and people movers and things that are foreign is they're required but none are built here - so its open season on those. If they start building one locally, the rule will quickly change.

[theunfairadvant]

Originally Posted by Abacus

I use a lot of LPG because I'v got a 5.0 windsor, the worst of the available VSI systems (Parnell), and most of my driving is inner Sydney stop/start driving.

Around town (Sydney, mainly inner west) I get about, 22.5L/100km although it can get as high as 26.0 if I'm stuck in traffic.

On the open road I average around 13.0L/100km.

But at the end of the day it all comes down to $/100km, not L/100km.

I put these sums in a post in the LPG forum:

In my case I do 30,000km pa.

Average consumption on petrol is around 18.5L/100km, and average consumption on gas is around 22.5L/100km.

LPG averages around 55c/L and petrol averages around $1.25/L

So, 30,000km on petrol costs around $6,938, and 30,000km on LPG is around $3,713

Therefore I save around $3,200 per year.

The cost of the conversion was about $4,200, less the $2,000 rebate = $2,200. Paypack period ws about 8 months.

Over 5 years I will save around $16,000, less the $2,200 installation cost, say $13,800.

Even if I only keep the car 3 years I'm still $7,400 ahead.

Now, a few years ago I had a Subaru Liberty 2.2. It used to average about 13.5L/100km around town. Over 30,000km it would have burned its way through 4,050L at a cost of $4,860. So even compared to that car the Falcon is saving over $1,000 per year. And the 5.0 Falcon craps all over the 2.2 Liberty for performance and interior space.

Basically, to get similar economy to an LPG Falcon you have to go to to a MUCH smaller petrol car, with all the trade-offs in interior space and comfort.

And you've gotta love the diesel comparisons in this thread. Sure, a little 307 diesel is going to cost less in fuel than a Falcon on LPG, but I don't think you'd be saving anything after you factor in service and spare parts costs. What's a set of brake rotors worth on those suckers?

Abacus,

Can you also do the figures for the 2.0 TDI SMG 6 speed auto golf please?

Thanks

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by theunfairadvant

Abacus,

Can you also do the figures for the 2.0 TDI SMG 6 speed auto golf please?

Thanks

30,000km in a Golf 2.0 TDI DSG with current diesel prices (149.9cpl) is $2,473.35/year in fuel.

[theunfairadvant]

Originally Posted by Steffo

30,000km in a Golf 2.0 TDI DSG with current diesel prices (149.9cpl) is $2,473.35/year in fuel.

So a Golf 2.0 TDI DSG diesel is better &
cheaper in the long run in this case.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

I'd go V8 and gas myself

yep i was thinking the same....NOS

[prydey]

the fact remains that my brothers au dedicated gas wagon is within reach of these euro diesels (30000km @ 15L/100km = about $2700 @ $0.60cpl) which is much better suited to his families needs. he has 3 young kids and all the stuff that goes with that.

i'm sure he's not alone. obviously your experience with dedicated gas cars (steffo) is a little different but that doesn't make me a liar now does it.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by prydey

i'm sure he's not alone. obviously your experience with dedicated gas cars (steffo) is a little different but that doesn't make me a liar now does it.

Nope, it doesn't make you a liar. Just the same way as it doesn't make me a clown. ;)

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Nope, it doesn't make you a liar. Just the same way as it doesn't make me a clown. ;)

point taken

[GK]

Originally Posted by theunfairadvant

So a Golf 2.0 TDI DSG diesel is better &
cheaper in the long run in this case.

How much would a Golf 2.0 TDI DSG diesal cost VS a dedicated gas Falcon? These costs must be factored in also.

Here's something else worth considering.
The Golf whist obviously a great car, is made in Germany (I'm assuming). My two AUs were made less than 10 km's from my house. That actually gives me a rather large sense of satisfaction.

GK

[GasoLane]

Basic Falcon about $37k
Golf about $39k

[Perana]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Basic Falcon about $37k
Golf about $39k

Then factor in the difference in servicing costs for running not only a euro car (which in itself usually are not cheap to maintain) but a diesel one (shorter service schedules + more expensive)

Not doubting that they are nice cars but as far as costs you need to consider not only inital purchase and fuel costs but servicing as well..

[Chamelion]

Consider insurance too, not to mention cost of replacing parts.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Then factor in the difference in servicing costs for running not only a euro car (which in itself usually are not cheap to maintain) but a diesel one (shorter service schedules + more expensive)

Not doubting that they are nice cars but as far as costs you need to consider not only inital purchase and fuel costs but servicing as well..

Servicing costs are about $240-$280 for a normal service (ie: non-major) on a Golf V. Service intervals are 15,000km on every Golf V, from the 1.6 Petrol to the 3.2 R32 and every model inbetween, Diesels included.

So lets see... up to 5 years warranty if you get the 2 years extended option, 12 years anti-corrosion warranty, long service intervals, cheap fuel, unrivaled 5 star NCAP saftey rating, class leading build quality, interior space comparable to family cars... not to forget market leading resale value.... how an LPG Falcon is a better buy for a cheap-to-run daily driver is beyond me. Comparable, definitley... but the 2.0 TDI Golf holds an undeniable edge.

PS - Its funny how this thread has turned into BFII XT E-Gas vs Golf 2.0 TDI when it was originally about 6-cyl LPG vs 4-cyl Petrol cars... hehe.

[Perana]

$280 for a minor service is madness... I definately know that a dealer minor service on an AU was about half that, can't imagine the BA/F being any different seeing its mainly oil/filter change...

Also for example have you priced a set of rotors for a Golf.. Euro's tend to chew through the rotors.. yes Falcons do too but a set of new DBA's is under $200... Consumable parts like that aren't covered under warranty.... Then there's tyre's which cost a hell of a lot more for the Golf sized ones since they are much less common.

Consider insurance too

Yep, after knowing an assessor in the insurance industry and having dealings with a crash repairer that specializes in Euro's etc I can tell you you have a crash and it costs.. which is reflected in your insurance premium.

[PoweredByCNG]

You definitely can't beat the resale value of European cars though. You would almost be better off buying a brand new Golf as opposed to buying a second hand one. Until the big Aussies offer diesel variants of their popular family cars, I think many people will turn to the European manufacturers for cheap-to-run medium-sized diesel cars, as it is the Europeans that have been leading the way in this area for years.

Regards,
Dave

[AlbertM]

Is the figures of 4 - 4.5L/100km for TDi cars an average or the best they do?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The Golf will tow it no issue. 320Nm @ 1750-4000rpm, 4500 redline. Gotta love diesel torque. I love how people try to say "oh my no the car is smaller then a Falcon so it can't do this," yet people in Europe tow caravans and thing in even smaller cars then a Golf. I mean nah, the world's most industrious, significant and technically advanced continent can't do something that a bunch of Aussies think isn't possible...

Whats the maximum towing capacity of these Golfs?

Without actually looking it up i would doubt that a small car would be legally allowed to pull a large van.

[GK351]

Golf towing..not bad for a small car..
1,500KG with brakes.
700KG without.

Back on topic though..
My father in law drives a taxi has been for 30 years, although the last 10 years he has not put LPG on 2 AU's and the current BF falcons.

He runs it on straight petrol, and he is alot better off without the LPG within 6 years.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Steffo

PS - Its funny how this thread has turned into BFII XT E-Gas vs Golf 2.0 TDI when it was originally about 6-cyl LPG vs 4-cyl Petrol cars... hehe.

i find it funny how it is assumed the dedicated gas vehicles mentioned are bf2. at no stage did i mention bf2. i did mention au though. of course the worse economy achieved by the ba/f's , due to the extra kurb weigt and same engine, will make your argument for the golf seem a lot better.

also i'd like to see you achieve 4-4.5L/100km in a daily driven golf (city cycle). wheels has 5.7 and 6.1 for man and auto, which is for combined city/highway driving.

i'd like to see you fit enough luggage for 2 adults and 3 kids in a golf and then drive to qld from adelaide.

6/8 cyl on gas give the benefit of small car economy but maintaining the benefits of a large car.