Which AU?

[ST]

Originally Posted by Sox

Nope. Now you're just shifting the goal posts.
Firstly, turbo engines react very differently than N/A engines, producing flat torque curves from the moment they build boost.
Secondly, we're discussing the AU XR6 HP and AU XR6 VCT, which share very very similar engines with one small difference.

I'm talking about the IRS providing better traction, especially in a straight line. To improve the acceleration and speed so it makes up for the extra weight, not just the VCT (which is no 'small difference' in it's own right). That makes much more than a small difference.

Originally Posted by Sox

Eh? What rubbish are you on about? Power to weight ratio applies to EVERYTHING.

Sure, things such as gearing, traction etc. However, the 2 vehicles in question share the same ummmm EVERYTHING, except for weight and power. So power to weight ratio is the only thing which comes into play here.

You are misinterpreting, you were saying power to weight figures like they were the be all to end all reason for how fast a car is. Whereas we both know there is much more in the equation.

Originally Posted by Sox

What part of -
"Realistically, the extra 8 kW of the VCT just isn't enough to make up for the extra 70kg of the independent rear suspension especially out on the race track."

Don't you understand?

I don't understand the part where it is his dads car that he isn't allowed to drive on the track (and hasn't). That kind of takes the credibility away.

Originally Posted by Sox

-
Learn to read, I said his name was mentioned on the site you provided, I did not say he was the writer.

Well that doesn't make a point of any form then.

Originally Posted by Sox

Yes, it does have 'better' suspension, unfortunately the extra weight of this better suspension is something which the revvier engine simply can't compensate for.
Therefore the VCT is slightly slower in acceleration, just like I said in my very first post.

If there is any difference it is near minimal. The revvier engine and the way the suspension gets better traction does compensate for the added weight.

[The Monty]

I might be stupid, but arent most street strip cars better off having a live rear, the au live rear is basically a four link setup, which is optimal for getting traction. I have only ever been told that the live rear is the way to go for the drags.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by RTSW

I'm talking about the IRS providing better traction, especially in a straight line. To improve the acceleration and speed so it makes up for the extra weight, not just the VCT (which is no 'small difference' in it's own right). That makes much more than a small difference.

Sure it would, IF the vehicles in question had any traction problems. Neither produce enough power to be hampered by traction issues on a drag strip.
And in fact, live rear axles provide superior traction on the drags strip in any case. How many dedicated drag cars have you seen with any form of IRS?

You are misinterpreting, you were saying power to weight figures like they were the be all to end all reason for how fast a car is. Whereas we both know there is much more in the equation.

No, I was stressing to you, in this instance, that power to weight is the single biggest factor which makes for one vehicle being slightly quicker.

I don't understand the part where it is his dads car that he isn't allowed to drive on the track (and hasn't). That kind of takes the credibility away.

Strawman noted.
I think his credibility is likely superior to both yours and mine.

Well that doesn't make a point of any form then.

How so? I mentioned it because on the very same page which has a journo claiming that the VCT is quicker, a link to a racer is provided who claims the exact opposite.
Don't you think that's a little ironic?

If there is any difference it is near minimal. The revvier engine and the way the suspension gets better traction does compensate for the added weight.

You got half of that right, the difference is minimal, BUT, it is in favour of the HP.

A difference of 8kw is barely noticeable on identical cars, let alone a car which is ~100kg heavier.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I might be stupid, but arent most street strip cars better off having a live rear, the au live rear is basically a four link setup, which is optimal for getting traction. I have only ever been told that the live rear is the way to go for the drags.

Give the man a cigar!!!

[ST]

Originally Posted by Sox

Sure it would, IF the vehicles in question had any traction problems. Neither produce enough power to be hampered by traction issues on a drag strip.
And in fact, live rear axles provide superior traction on the drags strip in any case. How many dedicated drag cars have you seen with any form of IRS?

That maybe so in the case of those cars, but all your sources will even back that the IRS in the VCT is superior to the rear live axle in the HP.

Originally Posted by Sox

I was stressing to you, in this instance, that power to weight is the single biggest factor which makes for one vehicle being slightly quicker.

I can't say it is, when there is no clearly faster car of the 2. Tenths of a second go both ways in all published and personal times given.

Originally Posted by Sox

Strawman noted.
I think his credibility is likely superior to both yours and mine.

Maybe so, but it's not a solid point when you haven't actually driven the car!

Originally Posted by Sox

How so? I mentioned it because on the very same page which has a journo claiming that the VCT is quicker, a link to a race is provided who claims the exact opposite.
Don't you think that's a little ironic?

Not really, a journalist doesn't have to agree with someones views to publish their material. This applies in this case obviously.

Originally Posted by Sox

You got half of that right, the difference is minimal, BUT, it is in favour of the HP.

Yet you still haven't got a confirmed credible source that reinforces this.

Originally Posted by Sox

A difference of 8kw is barely noticeable on identical cars, let alone a car which is ~100kg heavier.

It was actually quoted 70kg heavier. There is more to it than 70kg's of weight as we both have been discussing the whole time. How about we let the thread poster decide what he thinks is the car for him now? We've done enough damage to the thread and we are only repeating ourselves.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by RTSW

That maybe so in the case of those cars, but all your sources will even back that the IRS in the VCT is superior to the rear live axle in the HP.

Yes, on BUMPY surfaces. I never denied that, the IRS is clearly more comfortable and more stable on poor road surfaces.
On very good surfaces or the race track, the HP is quicker because of the reduced weight.

I can't say it is, when there is no clearly faster car of the 2. Tenths of a second go both ways in all published and personal times given.

I can say it is, and I am saying it is.

Maybe so, but it's not a solid point when you haven't actually driven the car!

Where did he say he hasn't driven it? He stated he isn't allowed to put stickers on it because it's his Dads.

EDIT : Actually, it clearly states that he has driven the car.

Not really, a journalist doesn't have to agree with someones views to publish their material. This applies in this case obviously.

Of course, but which do you feel is more credible?
I felt it ironic that 2 vastly different opinions are so closely linked.
I myself would bet on the racer over a journo, but that's me.

Yet you still haven't got a confirmed credible source that reinforces this.

Says you.

It was actually quoted 70kg heavier.

I have read anywhere from 70k to 120kg, so I averaged it (which would actually be 95kg....). In any case, it's not an insignificant amount.

There is more to it than 70kg's of weight as we both have been discussing the whole time. How about we let the thread poster decide what he thinks is the car for him now? We've done enough damage to the thread and we are only repeating ourselves.

Happily, didn't I suggest that about 37 posts back......

[ST]

Ok if you'd like to continue this we will keep looping.

Originally Posted by Sox

Yes, on BUMPY surfaces. I never denied that, the IRS is clearly more comfortable and more stable on poor road surfaces.
On very good surfaces or the race track, the HP is quicker because of the reduced weight.

No confirmation on this. Whereas many have stated superior straight line and turning ability with IRS, including less body roll and better traction.

Originally Posted by Sox

I can say it is, and I am saying it is.

Well that's great, but that is certainly not a definitive answer and i've seen more VCT's pull quicker times than HP's. So i'll stand by that.

Originally Posted by Sox

Where did he say he hasn't driven it? He stated he isn't allowed to put stickers on it because it's his Dads.

It's track talk, he is meaning he cannot try it out on the track.

Originally Posted by Sox

Of course, but which do you feel is more credible?
I felt it ironic that 2 vastly different opinions are so closely linked.
I myself would bet on the racer over a journo, but that's me.

Who says the other guy isn't a racer? There is no explanation as to his past. However I find his opinion is more valid than the racers due to the fact he has actually FULLY tested the range and has a broad knowledge of it. Very convincing to me.

Originally Posted by Sox

Says you.

No, you actually haven't got anything to clearly back this.

Originally Posted by Sox

I have read anywhere from 70k to 120kg, so I averaged it (which would actually be 95kg....). In any case, it's not an insignificant amount.

It isn't, but what the VCT actually has for the added weight isn't insignificant either.

Originally Posted by Sox

Happily, didn't I suggest that about 37 posts back......

Yes but you don't put a fire out by feeding it.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by RTSW

Ok if you'd like to continue this we will keep looping.

Nope, I don't.

[The Monty]

Put it this way, get two Fortes, put a 200kilo bloke in one, and an 80kilo bloke in the other, give the big bloke a K&N filter, and cut the front of the airbox out. The one with less weight will destroy the other one. The factor about the IRS giving better traction is crap, mine runs 14's, and it only just breaks traction if I mash it, and thats in a single spinner, the standard cars with LSD will never need traction correction via a different suspension set-up. The HP is faster, and it is easier to modify, you cant even get a cam for a VCT.

[ST]

LSD doesn't come standard with HP's. The VCT isn't the same as getting some power out of an air intake, it's not simply an additional 8kws. The factor about the IRS is not crap, it is proven.

The HP is easier to modify I will give it that (except a tune up with a better ratio does more for a VCT than a HP), though you can get a cam made for a VCT. A HP can be faster, but so can A VCT. Because there is so little between them it goes both ways.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Put it this way, get two Fortes, put a 200kilo bloke in one, and an 80kilo bloke in the other, give the big bloke a K&N filter, and cut the front of the airbox out. The one with less weight will destroy the other one. The factor about the IRS giving better traction is crap, mine runs 14's, and it only just breaks traction if I mash it, and thats in a single spinner, the standard cars with LSD will never need traction correction via a different suspension set-up. The HP is faster, and it is easier to modify, you cant even get a cam for a VCT.

I wouldn't bother too much with it mate, the dude owns a VCT.
Most people who own something feel it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and are less likely to actually listen to reason. They usually find it difficult to remain impartial.

That's ok, we're not the only ones who read this forum, and I'm sure many will make up their own mind what's best for them.

[StealthAu]

Originally Posted by RTSW

If that were true the new VE HSV 317's would be quicker than the FG F6 Typhoon with their higher power to weight ratio. It doesn't come down to power to weight, that's 4 cylinder talk. You should know that much more comes into the equation as to how quick a car goes. None of those actually say "the HP is faster" so there is no clear answer there either.

The quote you got from true blue was from "Daryl Coon" as it says on your link, if you actually looked at the page I gave you'd clearly see "Info By Doug Bevan". One person would not say one thing is superior then the next day say the other is.

There is no clear cut quicker car in the 2, it simply comes down to the VCT having better suspension and a more revvy engine.

The Au HP and AU VCT XR6's are have the same gearing so it really comes down to power to weight and nothing else.

[The Monty]

Yeah, I know. Thing is I own an Au 1 fairmont, its the slowest out of all the AU's, so everything seems fast to me.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by RTSW

I can't see a base spec looking falcon with an XR front on 16's being more attractive than a properly kitted one on 18's

NO XR except ST has factory 18's so thats invalid, and dont say aftermarket wheels as same can be said about an HP
I can see why people buy the VCT as it does 'in some regards' come with better options and was always deemed to be the 'upmarket' version of the XR6 range.
Monty is right, on the strip it is beficial to have a live rear axle. But not in every case but in the case of the AU yes as the IRS is a little heavier then the rear of a live axle equipped car.
Ive drivin both and there isnt much in it. But if you want to play the 'mines better then yours game' i might join in an trump you right there.
I know if i were looking at an XR and the right HP/VCT came up id buy it as even though ive had a HP before.

[HLC]

This is getting really out of hand. seriously.



it has been proven time and time again that the XR6 HP is slightly quicker in a straight line than the VCT due to the weight offset of the IRS. you want evidence, go look in the AU power and times thread. Stiddy's XR6 HP, with just exhaust ran a 14.9 i havnt seen a VCT go that quick without work.

yes the IRS handles better. but the HP is quicker.

Sox has proved this over and over again. so i dont know why you are still arguing RTSW its a waste of time.

with any slight mods a VCT will be quicker and handle better than a HP anyway, so who cares. seriously.

[b2tf]

RTSW

If you so much as threaten to assault my eyeballs with that multitude of quoting and 'yebbut" arguing again, I will slap the bejesus out of you in front of everybody at the next forums meet, then I will slam a soft serve icecream cone into your head.