Commodore sportwagon at Ford's proving ground

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

No way!
Firstly, there isn't the money to develop a new model. Ford's future here or in the US is still not safe.

Secondly, Ford has the Territory, which covers the family market well enough and as stated by many on here, is a fantastic all-round car. Why steal sales from it with two vehicles that are similar in dimensions, interior space, performance, as well as targeted demographic?

Thirdly, there is already a wagon, and it cost next to nothing to update from BFII to BFIII, and has its own niche market. It may not be pretty, but it gets the job done. Holden had to have a wagon, since the Captiva was not the success Holden had hoped it would be.

As nice and rosey as the VE may be, I am not convinced that it's making a massive difference to Holden sales.

When they have to take the price down several thousand only months after release, that is probably a sign that it isn't selling like hotcakes and therefore difficult to recoup the costs.

Ford is playing it smart.

If Ford released a similar wagon, would you buy it? Many people who say, "I want Ford to make a sportswagon" will never buy one. It's just eye-candy and a case of "monkey-see, monkey-do" between Holden and Ford.

Right now, Ford should keep the current line-up.

Spot on on all counts.

The VE Hatch is so similar to the sedan you could argue it could easily make the sedan redundant if holden needed to consolidate its range. The hatch has not given holden any extra sales, all its done is give sedan buyers the option of a bigger boot.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Spot on on all counts.

The VE Hatch is so similar to the sedan you could argue it could easily make the sedan redundant if holden needed to consolidate its range. The hatch has not given holden any extra sales, all its done is give sedan buyers the option of a bigger boot.

Even then, I wouldn't call it the difference that I would expect from a car that carries the "wagon" tag.

Australian wagons to me are practical vehicles.
We had an XF for 13 years and it was not a pleasure to drive compared to almost anything you throw up today, but in those 13 years, we drove to Queensland, Halls Gap about 5-6 times, Inverloch, Echuca and Swan Hill twice, Eildon countless times, Mansfield...many trips. With three kids in the back (I was in the middle) and a lot of luggage that EASILY fit in the boot, it was ideal for the family.

Also, with a second property in the West (grandparent's old place) and the heavy maintenance that comes with two units, we could carry tools, the lawnmower, tree loppers easily, especially with the back seat down.

For practicality, the XF wagon was among the best.

The VE combines European good looks with European size.
It's like comparing our old oven to our current one (1.5 years ago). Old one was an Australian oven - Westbrook Everhot. EASILY fit the largest turkey and two trays. Our new one is the most expensive Miele you can get, and it can't fit jack in comparison.

So while the European tag may give some people a fuzzy feeling inside, Australian practicality cannot be beat, and that is where Ford has played it superbly with the BFIII wagon.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Even then, I wouldn't call it the difference that I would expect from a car that carries the "wagon" tag.

Australian wagons to me are practical vehicles.
We had an XF for 13 years and it was not a pleasure to drive compared to almost anything you throw up today, but in those 13 years, we drove to Queensland, Halls Gap about 5-6 times, Inverloch, Echuca and Swan Hill twice, Eildon countless times, Mansfield...many trips. With three kids in the back (I was in the middle) and a lot of luggage that EASILY fit in the boot, it was ideal for the family.

Also, with a second property in the West (grandparent's old place) and the heavy maintenance that comes with two units, we could carry tools, the lawnmower, tree loppers easily, especially with the back seat down.

For practicality, the XF wagon was among the best.

The VE combines European good looks with European size.
It's like comparing our old oven to our current one (1.5 years ago). Old one was an Australian oven - Westbrook Everhot. EASILY fit the largest turkey and two trays. Our new one is the most expensive Miele you can get, and it can't fit jack in comparison.

So while the European tag may give some people a fuzzy feeling inside, Australian practicality cannot be beat, and that is where Ford has played it superbly with the BFIII wagon.

Yes and that's my point, by Australian standards and traditions its not a wagon, its an impostor as a wagon, in reality its a hatch.
Ive got no doubt it ticks allot of box's for families who think: "Hey, why not, its just like a sedan but with a bit more carry height" "lets buy one instead of a sedan".. which in reality is all that's happening... Its not creating the incremental sales holden thought it would.

[SSVPom]

Don't know if anyone can shed any light on this, but did anyone elso notice a lot of the VE development road cars had the rego starting with 'UAM' ? Mainly we saw them in '06 prior to the launch, but also a good deal of the press cars were the same. Also, more recently the Chevvy Impala badged Statesmans and Pontiac G8's wore the same plates.

Anyway, the point of this is on Hoddle Street (Melbourne) last week during 5.30pm rush hour, saw a dirty, ratty looking black VE SS with 'UAM' rego, 'VE' serial number stickers on the rear passenger door windows and a laptop computer mounted facing the driver in the front centre console.

What I couldn't work out were two sockets mounted in the slightly damaged lower rear bumper, they looked almost like lpg filling thingos, but were down low and looked important.

Some sort of chassis development mule ?

[prydey]

in the latest issue ot topgear australia (missus bought it), they have a R8 tourer in the 'lifers' section at the back. in that little write up they say, and i quote,'with the seats laid flat, you've got a long lowish space that'll take prams...etc'. now forgive me if i'm wrong here but if you want it to put a pram in the back, aren't you also going to want the rear seats in the UP position.

since when does carrying capacity in a wagon get measured with seats down.

[mcnews]

Be nice if they did do a proper FG RTV ute that is not bare bones and comes with the six speed auto or the good manual and a V8 would be nice too! I would buy one.

[Stattic]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

lol rickroll'd is soo 2008

Are we sure that sportswagon isn't some vacuum cleaner sales man that got lost?

exactly why no one suspected it! (i was a little bored)

[fou_bleu]

Notice the air freshener?

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by nugget378

One test was to see how many litre bottles of milk you can fit into the sportswagon?
The answer after testing was 2, and a dozen eggs if you pack everything just right..

Absolutely correct. But the eggs will break on the way home due to the clunks when the transmission changes gears.

[AusM]

From that pic, it looks like Ford must also be testing those yellow maple leaf air fresheners that you illegally hang from the rear view mirror!

[GasoLane]

I find nothing strange about the fact that one manufacturer tests anothers cars, this has been going on for years and makes perfect sense. But I find it very hard to believe that Holden and Ford actually GIVE each other vehicles!

Think about it.... Whats to stop either car maker building a top notch model that is prefectly finished and tuned to perfection and then give it to the opposition to make them think that their quality is not as good.

Or make a shoddy version so the other manufacturer can say that theirs is better?

If it comes to a point neither one would trust the other to give them a 'normal' car 'straight off the line'.

Anyway seeing as there are so many variations of each car model what do they do, give them one of each?

C'mon!!

[Matt P]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I find nothing strange about the fact that one manufacturer tests anothers cars, this has been going on for years and makes perfect sense. But I find it very hard to believe that Holden and Ford actually GIVE each other vehicles!

Think about it.... Whats to stop either car maker building a top notch model that is prefectly finished and tuned to perfection and then give it to the opposition to make them think that their quality is not as good.

Or make a shoddy version so the other manufacturer can say that theirs is better?

If it comes to a point neither one would trust the other to give them a 'normal' car 'straight off the line'.

Anyway seeing as there are so many variations of each car model what do they do, give them one of each?

C'mon!!

Yeah they do same way as ford give most of the original test cars to tafes around Australia once Tafe are finished they go in a press.
Believe what you want but its true I was suprised myself but I was told this by a relibale source who has been at the plant a long time.

I highly doubt they would go to the trouble to make a dodgy one to send to the other company to show how crap their cars are. :

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by FairmontPom

Don't know if anyone can shed any light on this, but did anyone elso notice a lot of the VE development road cars had the rego starting with 'UAM' ? Mainly we saw them in '06 prior to the launch, but also a good deal of the press cars were the same. Also, more recently the Chevvy Impala badged Statesmans and Pontiac G8's wore the same plates.

Anyway, the point of this is on Hoddle Street (Melbourne) last week during 5.30pm rush hour, saw a dirty, ratty looking black VE SS with 'UAM' rego, 'VE' serial number stickers on the rear passenger door windows and a laptop computer mounted facing the driver in the front centre console.

What I couldn't work out were two sockets mounted in the slightly damaged lower rear bumper, they looked almost like lpg filling thingos, but were down low and looked important.

Some sort of chassis development mule ?

The new VF Commodore is just around the corner, so I'm guessing these are the first of the mules. VF won't be a great deal different to VE under the skin, it will be cosmetic and mechanical changes.

There is a Rumoured 3.2 Litre Direct Injetion V6 in base models.

[Antwon]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I find nothing strange about the fact that one manufacturer tests anothers cars, this has been going on for years and makes perfect sense. But I find it very hard to believe that Holden and Ford actually GIVE each other vehicles!

Think about it.... Whats to stop either car maker building a top notch model that is prefectly finished and tuned to perfection and then give it to the opposition to make them think that their quality is not as good.

Or make a shoddy version so the other manufacturer can say that theirs is better?

If it comes to a point neither one would trust the other to give them a 'normal' car 'straight off the line'.

Anyway seeing as there are so many variations of each car model what do they do, give them one of each?

C'mon!!

Whats so bad about it? They buy the cars anyway, they all knew it, so why not be gentlemen about it and swap them? Saves alot of hassle.

Its not like Ford is giving Holden one of their cars so Holden can make theirs better, both Ford and Holden are getting some of each others cars, so they can both better their own cars against the opposition.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I find nothing strange about the fact that one manufacturer tests anothers cars, this has been going on for years and makes perfect sense. But I find it very hard to believe that Holden and Ford actually GIVE each other vehicles!



C'mon!!

I know for a fact it happens. They both provide cars to each other, and then they strip some of them down to nothing, and run a full analysis on each and every part, and then they cost every part down to the cent. They can then work out exactly how much each car costs to build and make, what sort of profit margins they have etc. Its extremely detailed analysis to know exactly what the other is doing. Know your enemy.

[Buzz Box]

Its true its hard to compete if you don't know what your competing against isn't it........

[Road_Warrior]

Heh. This thread might have new relevance considering the GoAuto article that was posted earlier today. Especially this quote:

Mr Burela scotched suggestions that the Falcon wagon – which is built on the previous platform architecture – would be discontinued in light of its reliance on a DSI-supplied gearbox and the launch in Melbourne last week of the imported Mondeo medium-sized wagon.

“We have no plans to drop the Falcon wagon. It is alive and well,” he said. “We hit a real nice sweet spot with the Falcon wagon and it just keeps selling.

[Gobes32]

Ford do not have any development costs owing (????) with the wagon therefore they can offer it to fleets at whatever prices they like. The small volume ensures that the resale is not butchered. And as far as Ford are concerned, if the wagon keeps selling and keeps the plant ticking over then why scrap it?

On another note, It's amazing how Ford and Holden have gone down 2 completely different routes...

The Falcon ute is the tradies car, tough, cheap and versatile.
The Commodore ute is fast, sleek and a bit of a showboat.
You can almost apply the same to Ford and Holden wagons........

[Road_Warrior]

Yes, but the fact remains, come 2010 they will HAVE to do something with it.

I'm taking bets now on what that will be...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yes, but the fact remains, come 2010 they will HAVE to do something with it.

I'm taking bets now on what that will be...

I reckon it will continue, all they will need to do to it is fit the Euro 4 engine, which shouldn't be too hard, and fit a 5 speed auto which will probably have to be done anyway if DSI closes, what else do they need to do? Looks mean nothing as its probably the last thing on the fleets priority list.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I reckon it will continue, all they will need to do to it is fit the Euro 4 engine, which shouldn't be too hard, and fit a 5 speed auto which will probably have to be done anyway if DSI closes, what else do they need to do? Looks mean nothing as its probably the last thing on the fleets priority list.

I'm with you mate.

As (your colleague) Gobes has mentioned, Ford owe nothing to the AU Wagon, which the BFIII is based on. It will cost them very little to get the EURO IV I6 and 5 Speed Automatic into the Wagon, and fleets will continue to buy them (especially if Ford get DSC on the eGas Wagons). There is no competition. Ford have this market to themselves, and will only be hurting themselves if they pull out.

If you want any more proof that they can pull this off, look at the XF Ute. What year did that finish production? If the Wagon has a consistent market, and does not cost Ford anything in the process, what is the problem?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I reckon it will continue, all they will need to do to it is fit the Euro 4 engine, which shouldn't be too hard, and fit a 5 speed auto which will probably have to be done anyway if DSI closes, what else do they need to do? Looks mean nothing as its probably the last thing on the fleets priority list.

So in other words, a major revision. Fitting FG drivelines and the FG interior to it would be what I would call a major revision, and will probably come with a styling change too to make it resemble the FG more closely. This is the most likely option because it will cost the least, although it will be difficult to effectively replicate the FG's front end look on the BFIII because the front end architecture of the two cars is completely different. Not to mention they already gave the BFII/BFIII a 'sort-of' FG face anyway.

Of course, they could develop (or be developing) an FG wagon. All the R&D for the car forward of the B pillar has already been done, and they could carry over the existing wagon floor pressing, but it would still be expensive and would require unique rear doors to be made just for the wagon. And it probably wouldnt be a LWB chassis like the BFIII. But then again it might be. I do not know whether the Orion's platform is conducive to 'stretching' but if it was, it would open the door for an FG wagon (a full size wagon, not a retarded looking 'sportwagon' or 'sportback') and possibly even.....a Fairlane.

That's my rampant speculation for the day. Flame suit on.

[4Vman]

I wonder how hard it would be to graft the FG bonnet, guards and front bar on the B series wagon...

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I wonder how hard it would be to graft the FG bonnet, guards and front bar on the B series wagon...

They Certainly got the XD ute to look OK wearing an EF front end

[Kamshaaft]

They may be doing it for the sales. The Sportwagon sells like hotcakes.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Kamshaaft

They may be doing it for the sales. The Sportwagon sells like hotcakes.

yeah, and for every hatch they sell, they sell one less sedan.

[Kamshaaft]

Not neccessarily. Fords still trying to sell BF Mk. II wagons aren't they? But for the majority you're pobably right, though it's not like they're losing out anyway - they make a bigger profit on the wagon in the first place.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Kamshaaft

Not neccessarily. Fords still trying to sell BF Mk. II wagons aren't they? But for the majority you're pobably right, though it's not like they're losing out anyway - they make a bigger profit on the wagon in the first place.

Yes, Ford make a bigger profit from wagons, unfortunately holden don't though.... they have to pay for the tooling some how.

[mrbaxr6t]

I believe that there is little to be learnt from examining a sportwagon, unless Ford want to make a Falcon hatchback. Also the Ford wagon is hands down a better machine in terms of a wagon - much greater storage capacity in the falc wagon over the sportwagon. If you are a travel salesman and are single or have no kids and a partner the case could be argued for a sidestyle utility with one of those cargo things on the rear - same storage space as a wagon with the seats down, no risk of damaging interior with dirty items and smaller cabin space to heat and cool.

And as for them measuring cargo capacity with the rear seat down uum : If we measured falc sedans the same way wow they would have a huge cargo capacity! probably go close or even greater than a sportwagon!

And if it is indeed true and holden gave it to Ford they would be stupid to not play with it - even if they just durability tested the drivetrain/tyres :evil3:

[Chopped]

Yeh wagons are dead, everyone wants SUV's

It is not as though other makes are looking a sporty wagon/hatch type vehicles as the next buzz segment (now that the SUV segment is in decline)

BMW >
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring...an-turismo.htm

Mercedes >
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/09/the-mercedes--1.html

Audi >
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4298818.html


Yep Ford is on a big winner with the BF2 wagon !!!

Thay could make a nice looking sporty wagon with the FG design