HSV W427 vs other high powered V8 and turbo 6 cylinder sedans

[tweeked]

Great all round package. Laps significanly faster than any other Aussie machine. Forget you 0-100 or overtaking times, forget your F6 and GT335. I want one more Ford to outdo the W427. It needs the R spec and more - an intercooler, diff& gearbox cooling and bigger still brakes. Give me this before a better stereo or silly Playstation graphs on the dash.

Add a Helmet Signed by Moff to the usual giveaways - if it is available in November next year and less than $100k, i am off to the bank manager

[dimka100]

Both companies are well known for making some truly crap business decisions … but they only have themselves to blame for.

Originally Posted by Brazen

Poor business case? FPV spent 40 mill on a new engine and yet HSV outsells FPV 2:1. It's because of the reputation built with cars precisely like W427 that HSV can sell the amount of cars it does.

[dimka100]

You know you can actually do that today ... grab a stock GT and head to Herrod performance ... for an extra 20K on top of your base GT they will upgrade it to be faster than any production GTHO we can hope to expect from FPV in the next few years (and I'm not talking just straight line ...).

Originally Posted by tweeked

Great all round package. Laps significanly faster than any other Aussie machine. Forget you 0-100 or overtaking times, forget your F6 and GT335. I want one more Ford to outdo the W427. It needs the R spec and more - an intercooler, diff& gearbox cooling and bigger still brakes. Give me this before a better stereo or silly Playstation graphs on the dash.

Add a Helmet Signed by Moff to the usual giveaways - if it is available in November next year and less than $100k, i am off to the bank manager

[mcnews]

And a W427 would still be the better car

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by mcnews

And a W427 would still be the better car

not to mention ADR approved,emission legal and properly engineered to be a production vehicle.

[xisled]

It is funny that most people will say $155k is overpriced and the Ford have a better option. I would say most people that spent $155k on a car probably do not really care about money and have plenty of it. 99% people who are own this car will not care about price

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Poor business case? FPV spent 40 mill on a new engine and yet HSV outsells FPV 2:1. It's because of the reputation built with cars precisely like W427 that HSV can sell the amount of cars it does.

Or because that market segment has so many more HSV buyers than FPV buyers?

That $40 million for the blown V8 is being amortized over a lot more sales and years than W427,
and to be honest, I don't think HSV openly admitted to how much W427 cost to develop.

The truth is that any HSV or FPV over $100K is a tough sell , $120K is even tougher...

LINK
In the end it takes 165 unique parts to create the W427, as well as an estimated three days of hand assembly in the final finishing bays created for the car at HSV headquarters in Clayton.

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by Cashie

Those saying that the $150k ask for the W427 was unreasonable should google exactly what was done to a GTS to build this.
It wasn't 'just' a 7.0 litre bolt in, the suspension was changed, height and MRC settings, brakes were changed, wheels were changed, gearbox was changed, diff was changed, and of course all the dry sump engineering and even the OTR cold air intake.
.

So you dont deduct the cost of the regular GTS motor, suspension, brakes, wheels and diff and other bits? at best all these items were worth a small amount less than the wd427 item added?? Where do you get the extra $75k asking price?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Or because that market segment has so many more HSV buyers than FPV buyers?

And where do you think these supporters appear from?

It is the brand purity that HSV delivers that Tickford oops FTE sorry FPV needs to match.

Cars like W427 may be expensive but they signal to the market what they are all about, whereas products like the GS which look the same as a Hertz-XR6 give a different impression.

[RAPID_BA]

If KIA said they were gonna release a $150,000 "supercar" would you be all praise too? At the end of the day for that money and the W427 money you want a proper car, not a tarted up Commodore with the quality issues of a $30,000 car.

[THABOSS]

Originally Posted by Brazen

And where do you think these supporters appear from?

It is the brand purity that HSV delivers that Tickford oops FTE sorry FPV needs to match.

Cars like W427 may be expensive but they signal to the market what they are all about, whereas products like the GS which look the same as a Hertz-XR6 give a different impression.

Exactly, FPV need to release a 'This is what we can do' car to show the loyal followers and the undecided that they are still here to take on HSV.

Also HSV has real history, FPV do not - they are currently making their own history.

[gtfpv]

well in this thread , the HSV 427 is copping a bashing , no doubt an fpv GTHO would cop a bashing also .
your all a bunch of jealous F'S .
i bet any hsv 427 owner , any fpv owner , or any future GTHO , OWNER Wgaf what you say .
LOL

[T3ts50]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

So you dont deduct the cost of the regular GTS motor, suspension, brakes, wheels and diff and other bits? at best all these items were worth a small amount less than the wd427 item added?? Where do you get the extra $75k asking price?

HSV had to buy the cars from Holden fitted with the LS3 and T56, as the LS7 and TR6060 could not be fitted down in Elizabeth. So essentially this would have been added into the cost.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

If KIA said they were gonna release a $150,000 "supercar" would you be all praise too? At the end of the day for that money and the W427 money you want a proper car, not a tarted up Commodore with the quality issues of a $30,000 car.

So which $150k car would you buy?

The AMG C63 (tarted up C200)
The BMW M3 (tarted up 318D)
The Shelby GT500 (tarted up Mustang V6)

Or would you just buy a second hand piece of junk, waste more money than it is worth paying someone else to do mods in the vain hope that it might look like it performs but never ever go near a track where the capabilities of both the car and driver could actually be observed..........

[Uncle Tone]

My view of the W427 is pretty well documented over in the other place.

There is a reason why it didn't sell. Quite simply, it wasn't worth the money, and people knew it. I know of a couple of people who own C63's now who had their name down for W427's.......until they released the pricing structure of course.....

Adding to that the fact that every single piece of hardware exclusive to that model aside from the engine, and a set of shot-peened diff gears was in the very next model release of the GTS.

$70K for a crate motor and for someone to chuck ballbearings at your diff.....

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by strobe

I'd rather kiss my sister.

Sig'd.

[pottery beige]

if you can't see the value in FPV or HSV.. its probably because you can't afford one....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

And where do you think these supporters appear from?

It is the brand purity that HSV delivers that Tickford oops FTE sorry FPV needs to match.

Come on seriously?
You're saying that in a mismatched market that it's all due to HSV being better than FPV?

Please, buyer preference predates what HSv and FPV are putting out, there are so many
more HSV/ Holden buyer than FPV / Ford buyers because of the popularity of the brands,
not necessarily that one is better than the other, it's a given has been and probably always will be.

Mind you, the last two months have been very positive for FPV - Amazing what Advertising does.

[gtfpv]

What does it cost to buy a C63 in Germany , or America ?

the only reason i would buy one in australia is if i had shedloads of money , i dont buy fpv's cause i have shedlaods of money , however if i had shedloads of money i would buy an fpv or hsv special edition if thats what it costs here where it is made , not a merc that is 1/2 price overseas , they can keep it , ive got better things to be ripped off on .
besides why bag a v8 aussie car over a car 2 to 3 times more in cost .

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

So you dont deduct the cost of the regular GTS motor, suspension, brakes, wheels and diff and other bits? at best all these items were worth a small amount less than the wd427 item added?? Where do you get the extra $75k asking price?

Eeerrrrr.
Most track oriented cars with 'less' on the inside and the factory bits thrown away in favour of better stuff cost more.

You along with many have missed the point of this car, as i posted earlier if this was a 450kw Falcon GT with a heap of goodies thrown at it you would be singing its praises.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

So you dont deduct the cost of the regular GTS motor, suspension, brakes, wheels and diff and other bits? at best all these items were worth a small amount less than the wd427 item added?? Where do you get the extra $75k asking price?

Well, for starters.


-HSV would have to do a few hundred thousand K's of drive line testing. And that's with road tests and stress tests. This includes over revving the engine, putting the car over rough roads etc...

-The changes to the suspension, and changes to the weight displacement, wheels and brakes would call for a reconfigured ABS coding...and that's not cheap.

-Reconfigured Drive train, beefed up gearbox diff etc.

Just to buy a Ls7 its self cost 17000...and that's without ECU, sump setup etc...ABS recoding cost 100's of thousands its self (There was an article in Automotive Aftermarket about this). New wheel and bumper castings...there is another Million...


And it all had to meet ADR's...


Most importantly...

You're owning a Factory built, and warrented supercar. With no rego or defect hassels and car that will hold or increase in value.

[ebxr8240]

Non argument really ..
Why waist your time on car that chances are neither of you will ever own.. My as well compare it to the new Ford GT/40..
At Least it's for sale for the masses..

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Nikked

And it all had to meet ADR's...


Most importantly...

You're owning a Factory built, and warrented supercar. With no rego or defect hassels and car that will hold or increase in value.

Agreed with your entire post 100%, but for me the above is the reason why it cost so much.

Top post.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

So you dont deduct the cost of the regular GTS motor, suspension, brakes, wheels and diff and other bits? at best all these items were worth a small amount less than the wd427 item added?? Where do you get the extra $75k asking price?

This is pretty close:

Originally Posted by Nikked

Well, for starters.


-HSV would have to do a few hundred thousand K's of drive line testing. And that's with road tests and stress tests. This includes over revving the engine, putting the car over rough roads etc...

-The changes to the suspension, and changes to the weight displacement, wheels and brakes would call for a reconfigured ABS coding...and that's not cheap.

-Reconfigured Drive train, beefed up gearbox diff etc.

Just to buy a Ls7 its self cost 17000...and that's without ECU, sump setup etc...ABS recoding cost 100's of thousands its self (There was an article in Automotive Aftermarket about this). New wheel and bumper castings...there is another Million...


And it all had to meet ADR's...


Most importantly...

You're owning a Factory built, and warrented supercar. With no rego or defect hassels and car that will hold or increase in value.

My sources put the price of a crate LS7 to HSV at US$22,756.10...
Price an LS3, not even in the ball park.
HSV offloaded the LS3's used and no warranty to a couple of workshops, i can only assume a decent loss was made on each of these as they were onsold for around $4k each (and the brakes and the T56).
I love how people think an OEM can just bolt an engine in and slap a price tag on, there are thousands of hours of engineering, testing and verification, let alone any hardware costs.

Also, a hero car isn't just about direct sales, they also bring in customers that end up buying a "lesser" car..

And lastly, as i have previously stated, $150k was too much money for what you ended up with when cars such as a C63 and GT-R were similar money.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

I'd buy a C63 in a heart beat... what depresses me (and why I'd never do it here in AUS) is that here we pay $96,000 for a second hand one, yet over in Germany a 2008 C63 AMG Sedan cost around $22,500+ taxes, onroads etc... that's $AUD too!

Somewhere between the importing, stamp duty, lux tax etc we hike up nearly $100,000 MORE for the same car.

While my F6 is stellar in many regards, we need local engineering to pick up their game, make a car that has some decent sound proofing in the doors (road noise in my F6 is worse than my old AU), add the fancy bits, throw in an intercooler on the V8...

What I'm saying is, GIVE US A NEW HERO CAR! Not a sticker pack with some wider tyres! Go the WHOLE HOG!

GT500+: 500rwhp, Intercooled, Upgraded blower, exhaust, 275's or wider, coil overs, presige interior colour scheme with gauges on top of the ICC, heck, change up the rims with something different!

Give me a hero car that lets me pull up to every set of lights with the same orgasmic satisifcation the women reading 50 shades of grey on my morning train have smeared all over their faces.

[Cambo351]

Originally Posted by grandpa_spec_F6

I'd buy a C63 in a heart beat... what depresses me (and why I'd never do it here in AUS) is that here we pay $96,000 for a second hand one, yet over in Germany a 2008 C63 AMG Sedan cost around $22,500+ taxes, onroads etc... that's $AUD too!

Somewhere between the importing, stamp duty, lux tax etc we hike up nearly $100,000 MORE for the same car.

When I was visiting in Perth last year I saw a guy cruising along the beach in a brand new 5.0L Supercharged Jaguar XJR "hmmm wonder what they cost in Oz" so I looked it all up when I got home & made a comparison with the major markets....

These prices are from October 2011, sorry it's in Pounds but you get the picture;

Jaguar XFR 5.0L S/C, 375KW / 510PS, without any options, exchange rates according xe.com in October 2011. Prices included sales taxes / VAT in the specific country (except USA).

United States $82,000.00 which is £51,540.00+Tax (doesn't include sales tax, which is state dependant)
United Kingdom £65,350.00 on-the-road, includes 20% VAT
Germany €92,700.00 which is £80,576.00, includes 19% VAT
France €95,700.00 which is £83,244.00, includes 19.6% VAT
Switzerland CHF 129,800.00 which is £92,117.00, includes 8% VAT

Last but not least, Australia $207,904.00 which is £135,233.00, includes 10% VAT, 5% Customs Duty and....
The LCT (Luxury Car Tax) of $45,234.00 (£29,500) un-be-fooken-lievable...

Another reason why I no longer call Australia home.

Nevertheless boys & girls, this is a prime example of why HSV & FPV are who they are in Oz. The quality competition is (insanely) priced out of the market.

Put a new GTS or GT-P side by side with an XFR, power, handling, luxury and then look at the USA price of the XFR, do buyers really get value for money with HSV or FPV in Oz? Some would say yes. I say maybe. The GT's are a supercharged 5.0L "same" as the Jags but already 40KW short of the mark....

This is not a shot at FPV or HSV, just wanted to put it out there, since the discussion was about value for money, what's it worth, tarted up taxis, etc...

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by flappist

So which $150k car would you buy?

The AMG C63 (tarted up C200)
The BMW M3 (tarted up 318D)
The Shelby GT500 (tarted up Mustang V6)

Or would you just buy a second hand piece of junk, waste more money than it is worth paying someone else to do mods in the vain hope that it might look like it performs but never ever go near a track where the capabilities of both the car and driver could actually be observed..........

most on here would do the last option. Thats why they dont sell any new falcons these days.

Those who could justify paying $155k on the wd40 hsv probably also bought a hsv vt 220kw stroker for $75k also. Would still have the taste of lemon in their mouths

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I've had a bit of a sore spot against the W427 from when they only had the one built, and entered it in "production car" races where it would win against real production cars.

I suppose a production of "one" is what Holden called "production". The fact that the one vehicle they built was pretty much unregisterable was also a sticking point...which the racing ruling bodies didn't seem to care about at the time.

Mr Walkingshaw bolted a supercharger onto one of these and played round with it in England....Dramas were, the Aussie powers to be wouldn't approve it in this country....So we can see what he was trying to achieve.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

If KIA said they were gonna release a $150,000 "supercar" would you be all praise too? At the end of the day for that money and the W427 money you want a proper car, not a tarted up Commodore with the quality issues of a $30,000 car.

Not really a valid point.

We could always spend $90,000 on an FPV (tarted up Falcon) and still have bigger toubles than a $15,000 Korean POS...

[melv1n]

I cant see these things holding much value in years to come.
There are always die hards though.