The greatest ever Australian performance car

[FTE]

Originally Posted by Sprint XR8

Walkinshaw have no ownership of the HSV brand and logo. All HSV trademarks are owned by General Motors.

Thats where the licensing agreement between Premoso and Holden happens.
Premoso have always owned the company, Holden/GM have always owned the name.

[Chopped]

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by FTE

HSV isnt an aftermarket tuner, builder etc. It is a licensed secondary manufacturer........

Mate, you have answered the question, HSV are a secondary manufacturer, not factory.

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

A little off topic but my VE HSV started life as a Calais and the compliance plate said it was a Calais.

Originally Posted by FTE

Thats the base of all HSV cars from VE onwards. it was never a calais then changed, it was a planned build from that model. In other words Holden didnt build a Calais then send it to HSV to be stripped and converted. HSV have allocated cars that have been made a certain way by Holden. So your "Calais" was built on the Holden production line with HSV specific items such as different wiring looms etc for LED lights and different instrument cluster, boot lid with pre drilled holes for different spoilers. List goes on. Engine is already in it too (except on rare occasions like W427's 7 litre and W1 LS9)

So again Holden provide HSV with a body suitable to do their thing with and in the W1’s guise obviously with no engine BUT the factory compliance plate probably says it came off the production line built as a Calais, NOT HSV, unlike past Fords that had a compliance plate with GT, GTHO etc so a HSV is NOT factory produced that aspect being left to a secondary manufacturer.

I would assume no HSV’s have a factory compliance plate indicating they are HSV only an additional plate added by HSV and probably the same as early FPV’s etc.

However, as I stated in a previous post if these private companies were wholly owned and run by the factories etc then things would be different. Interestingly a fly in the ointment DOES apply in Fords case to the last of the FPV’s as in 2012 Ford purchased FPV outright solely to be able to continue manufacturing and marketing of FPV’s.

I assume prior to this purchase Ford also provided FPV with bodies similarly half built like Holden did to HSV and FPV also then added their own compliance plate.

BUT now with FPV being factory owned and run since 2012 that would make the GTF 351 a genuine Ford Factory model. Be interesting info if ayone here has one if they could advise if the compliance plate issued by Ford says GTF etc and not say XR8 an still with an additional FPV plate. But either way anything FPV produced post 2012 would be a genuine Ford factory produced model.

So in the final analysis Fords final factory performance car is either the GTF or perhaps a Barra turbo model also released post 2012 and Holdens currently is, I have no idea , but they will be the final factory released performance models so who wins that mantle .

HSV’s W1 is theirs and obviously wins the secondary manufacturers title easily and good on them.

[arronm]

It's the barra turbo. The rest are just bitzas

[.:4:.]

Would the bullet roadster fit the criteria? Almost 0% australian made parts however the concept and execution were all australian. Gotta love the make it fit attitude.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by arronm

It's the barra turbo. The rest are just bitzas

If Simon was a secondary manufacturer then after he got hold of one it would be W1 game over

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Mate, you have answered the question, HSV are a secondary manufacturer, not factory.





So again Holden provide HSV with a body suitable to do their thing with and in the W1’s guise obviously with no engine BUT the factory compliance plate probably says it came off the production line built as a Calais, NOT HSV, unlike past Fords that had a compliance plate with GT, GTHO etc so a HSV is NOT factory produced that aspect being left to a secondary manufacturer.

I would assume no HSV’s have a factory compliance plate indicating they are HSV only an additional plate added by HSV and probably the same as early FPV’s etc.

However, as I stated in a previous post if these private companies were wholly owned and run by the factories etc then things would be different. Interestingly a fly in the ointment DOES apply in Fords case to the last of the FPV’s as in 2012 Ford purchased FPV outright solely to be able to continue manufacturing and marketing of FPV’s.

I assume prior to this purchase Ford also provided FPV with bodies similarly half built like Holden did to HSV and FPV also then added their own compliance plate.

BUT now with FPV being factory owned and run since 2012 that would make the GTF 351 a genuine Ford Factory model. Be interesting info if ayone here has one if they could advise if the compliance plate issued by Ford says GTF etc and not say XR8 an still with an additional FPV plate. But either way anything FPV produced post 2012 would be a genuine Ford factory produced model.

So in the final analysis Fords final factory performance car is either the GTF or perhaps a Barra turbo model also released post 2012 and Holdens currently is, I have no idea , but they will be the final factory released performance models so who wins that mantle .

HSV’s W1 is theirs and obviously wins the secondary manufacturers title easily and good on them.

Nice story....

[b0son]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Mate, you have answered the question, HSV are a secondary manufacturer, not factory....

Oh my god, who even cares....

[AussieCJ7]

Pour fuel on to the fire:

If you follow the secondary manufacture argument then the Mustangs from Street Fighter and Herrods are right up the list, they are being assembled in Australia to about the same % that HSV assembles



Now sits back with a beer and watches the fire



For me the test is does the general consumer market consider HSV as Holden, which I would say yes so the whole secondary manufacture argument doesnt matter they out marketed regardless of ownership

[Pedro]

Hey, thanks b0son, you just woke me up ... yawn ...

[SensationFG8]

I'm pretty one eyed, but I honestly cant believe the level some are going to here to argue against this...

W1 IS the best performance car built by either Ford or Holden in Australia. Trying to argue HSV isn't part of Holden strange, it's never been in question in the past, why so now?
The barra IS the best performance engine built be either FoA or Holden, I cant think of any others but feel free to put up the stats of a donk that was cast in AU to prove it wrong. That doesn't make the F6 the best AU performance car though, it just has the best home cast engine.

Neither of those things are subjective so should not be in dispute, if you do wish to dispute then you just need raw figures to call it out.

Claiming a car has a higher top speed only doesn't make it a better performance car. It has to consistently win at least 51% of the different performance tests to be considered a better performance car. I dont think anything from FoA can beat the 0-100, quarter or track times of this W1.

Lets face it the numbers the mags are getting are sufficiently better than anything FoA has produced for this title to be given to the W1.

I dont think this makes it the BEST overall car as there are many other factors in that, but it certainly wins the performance category.

[FTE]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Mate, you have answered the question, HSV are a secondary manufacturer, not factory.





So again Holden provide HSV with a body suitable to do their thing with and in the W1’s guise obviously with no engine BUT the factory compliance plate probably says it came off the production line built as a Calais, NOT HSV, unlike past Fords that had a compliance plate with GT, GTHO etc so a HSV is NOT factory produced that aspect being left to a secondary manufacturer.

I would assume no HSV’s have a factory compliance plate indicating they are HSV only an additional plate added by HSV and probably the same as early FPV’s etc.

However, as I stated in a previous post if these private companies were wholly owned and run by the factories etc then things would be different. Interestingly a fly in the ointment DOES apply in Fords case to the last of the FPV’s as in 2012 Ford purchased FPV outright solely to be able to continue manufacturing and marketing of FPV’s.

I assume prior to this purchase Ford also provided FPV with bodies similarly half built like Holden did to HSV and FPV also then added their own compliance plate.

BUT now with FPV being factory owned and run since 2012 that would make the GTF 351 a genuine Ford Factory model. Be interesting info if ayone here has one if they could advise if the compliance plate issued by Ford says GTF etc and not say XR8 an still with an additional FPV plate. But either way anything FPV produced post 2012 would be a genuine Ford factory produced model.

So in the final analysis Fords final factory performance car is either the GTF or perhaps a Barra turbo model also released post 2012 and Holdens currently is, I have no idea , but they will be the final factory released performance models so who wins that mantle .

HSV’s W1 is theirs and obviously wins the secondary manufacturers title easily and good on them.

Ford and Prodrive both had a stake in FPV which was around 51%/ 49% that made it a joint venture until Ford took over the operation.
Premoso solely own their business and trade under HSV in a licensing agreement but is owned by the Walkinshaw Group. There is no joint venture in their cars except for things like Group A (the initial car that started it all).
Holden supply the car but the cost belongs to HSV not Holden.

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by MethodX

A bit out there reason, because the Ford is Dohc it has to be faster...
The GM motor has capacity and torque.

Yes MethodX! The GM motor has the capacity and torque. But it is also a relic from the past. Dinosaur era, Push Rod, 2 Valve Technology.

However. The Ford Quad Cam and DOHC motors may not have the capacity. But they are Technological Advanced, More Efficient, can rev harder and go faster.

Go back and reread Post 47, written by asagaai. It's all there.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

Yes MethodX! The GM motor has the capacity and torque. But it is also a relic from the past. Dinosaur era, Push Rod, 2 Valve Technology.

However. The Ford Quad Cam and DOHC motors may not have the capacity. But they are Technological Advanced, More Efficient, can rev harder and go faster.

Go back and reread Post 47, written by asagaai. It's all there.

Wow, it took the third page for someone to bust out this old myth again. For someone championing 'tech' I'd thought you'd be the last person rooting for the Falcon.
Clutching at straws to try and undermine a great send off for the last hero Holden and Aussie Muscle cars in general. If only Ford/FPV went to such lengths to give us something to remember... sticker pack specials don't count and no one will remember the GTF or R spec in ten years time.


I can remember back in 04/05 one eyed Ford fans jumping in the dohc band wagon once the BA was launched (while the Boss was getting raped by the LS1)... where were they ten years earlier when every other maker was offering them to the market apart from FoA/Holden

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

Yes MethodX! The GM motor has the capacity and torque. But it is also a relic from the past. Dinosaur era, Push Rod, 2 Valve Technology.

However. The Ford Quad Cam and DOHC motors may not have the capacity. But they are Technological Advanced, More Efficient, can rev harder and go faster.

Go back and reread Post 47, written by asagaai. It's all there.

Guess the Corvette and the Camaro Z21 must be bad then...
All the classic Ford muscle cars are crap now, and count for nothing.
Crush 'em.

Youre boat anchor Clevo's are nothing, by your rationale..

Who cares if they are operated by remote control, V8, and the right sound.

Thanks for the advice.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Blue Roo

Yes MethodX! The GM motor has the capacity and torque. But it is also a relic from the past. Dinosaur era, Push Rod, 2 Valve Technology.

However. The Ford Quad Cam and DOHC motors may not have the capacity. But they are Technological Advanced, More Efficient, can rev harder and go faster.

Go back and reread Post 47, written by asagaai. It's all there.

Sorry to burst your bubble...but OHC technology exsisted in the early 1900's...and, in actual fact, a Overhead Valve setup (like what is found on the GM LS) is actually newer technology?

Overhead Cams predate Overhead valve engine's...

So just being DOHC doesn't make it "modern" as "pushrods", in comparison are far from Dinosaur... (and thats good, my AU XR8 isn't a "dinosaur relic")

And yes, the W1 is Australia's greatest performance car, despite how many (jealous i guess) ford fans try to undermine it.

Holden/HSV/Premcar/Walkinshaw...whoever we want to believe are responsible for it have built something us Ford fans always wanted...

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by smoo

Wow, it took the third page for someone to bust out this old myth again. For someone championing 'tech' I'd thought you'd be the last person rooting for the Falcon.
Clutching at straws to try and undermine a great send off for the last hero Holden and Aussie Muscle cars in general. If only Ford/FPV went to such lengths to give us something to remember... sticker pack specials don't count and no one will remember the GTF or R spec in ten years time.

Well- engineering is engineering.

Twin cam 4 valves have lots of advantages, better breathing at higher revs, lighter valve weight meaning less need for greater valve spring control, less frictional cost in terms of the pushrods and rocker arms.

This comes at a price, bigger heads and more weight, and less torque at lower revs.

A good pushrod engine can be designed to be competative, and can overcome the volumetric inefficiency of not having 4 valves by using increased cubic capacity and more aggressive cam profiles. But on a road such engines generally are limited to some 7,000 revs.

All my initial post was pointing out was that for a high speed run, where it is all about achieving maximum revs, that a twin cam 4 valve is inherently better suited for revving out to higher revs, whereas a pushrod you will need to use cubes and gearing to account for the relative more modest top end revving out ability.

I personally think this latest Commodore is a great car and a better performance car as a all round finished package than say a GTF.

But I would put my money against HSV being "pessimistic" rather than "optimistic" with their top end modeling estimates of the their machines top speed at 294 kph. Time will tell when an unbiased 3rd party tests one out, without any special tune other than removal of the limiter.

I also think you are wrong about the GTF being forgotten, it will go down as the fastest top end speed 4 door car ever made in Australia. Does not mean it will be the best performance car though.

[Syndrome]

F6 Typhoon

[arronm]

Anyone done the maths.

293kph @6600rpm. I dont think so. My F6 runs 50kph per 1000rpm. It is manual and has same 6 speed and 3.73 rear. my tyres are 285/30/19 HSV is 295/30/20 so larger OD , so you more kph / 1000rpm.

So at say 53kph/1000 in top @ 6600 = theoretically geared for 350kph.

SO it will easily blow past 300kph and it wont need a tailshaft upgrade, just no speed limiter. Would smoke the GTF. So once these are done unfortunately no ford will be the quickest or fastest.

Who cares, bomb your cars up and come do 300kph at RACEWARS.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by arronm

Anyone done the maths.

293kph @6600rpm. I dont think so. My F6 runs 50kph per 1000rpm. It is manual and has same 6 speed and 3.73 rear. my tyres are 285/30/19 HSV is 295/30/20 so larger OD , so you more kph / 1000rpm.

So at say 53kph/1000 in top @ 6600 = theoretically geared for 350kph.

SO it will easily blow past 300kph and it wont need a tailshaft upgrade, just no speed limiter. Would smoke the GTF. So once these are done unfortunately no ford will be the quickest or fastest.

Who cares, bomb your cars up and come do 300kph at RACEWARS.

What is the gearing of your 6 speed box, especially ratios in 5th and 6th gear. Is it the same as the Commodore HSV unit?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by arronm

Anyone done the maths.

293kph @6600rpm. I dont think so.

336kph@6600rpm

[arronm]

.80 and .63 for the F6 .82 and .68 for the HSV.

Could sit and work it out but it will be more than 330KPH and with 474KW it WILL go over 300kph.

Looks like boSon already did. Cheers

[SensationFG8]

You haven't factored in real world stuff like drag.

[arronm]

Dont need to. If a GTF can go 297 with 351KW. I am sure a GTS with 474KW can go 4kph more min. Easy over 300kph.

This brick did 307kph.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by arronm

.80 and .63 for the F6 .82 and .68 for the HSV.

Could sit and work it out but it will be more than 330KPH and with 474KW it WILL go over 300kph.

Looks like boSon already did. Cheers

What about diff ratios?

[pottery beige]

freds are funny

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

What about diff ratios?

Identical

[Windsor220]

I don't get why people get so worked up about this. In a year or twos time nobody will even remember these cars as they will be locked up in peoples sheds. Real figures will get lost in pub chat. Does anyone even care about the Holden v Ford stuff anymore anyway? Haven't met someone in real life that has mentioned it in about 5 years.

[Sar4890]

Its pretty much bench/bar racing anyway.unless you get track time you could probably never see the full potential of these cars and that assuming you are a decent pedlar yourself. My old ford had a top speed of around 120mph so the book tells me but I think you would have to have big cojones to drive it that fast.

[Iggle Piggle]

I'll give it a go in about 8 years when they are selling for about $6k.