my fairmont writen off this morning

items · 24-10-2007, 04:01 PM

hey over the last 2 years i have spent a lot of time and money on my ed fairmont. this morning driven long mitchem road in donvale going to work when a prelude ran up the back end of me. not my fault. its fairly bad no doors open roof is buckled. the whole back end has been push down and is off to the left about 70-100 mm. easily said its a write off. im spewing. i have all ready taken the wheels off and put old ones back. but im asking for advice should i take the cam and exhaust out and replace with the stock stuff before the a asessor comes and looks at it. because they could take it and pay me out for the car and i might not get it back. i want it back so i can strip it and sell whats left. any idea

Windza · 24-10-2007, 04:14 PM

Well considering what you're proposing is essentially insurance fraud, I hardly think disclosing these sort of details on a public forum is a wise move - I'm not trying to be rude, but you should know you are certainly running the risk of getting into trouble. There's no denying you could easily get away with it, but at least be discreet, or honest - one of the two !!

Dezza · 24-10-2007, 04:22 PM

The exhaust would most likely be stuffed anyway, so don't bother taking that. I have to ask the question, did you notify your insurer of your mods? If you didn't, then take it back to stock. If you did, leave it as is

items · 24-10-2007, 04:23 PM

good point please close this thread.

**Sorted** · 24-10-2007, 05:19 PM

Its not fraud if you didnt advise the insurance company of the mods in the first place

Its like when you put a $1,000 stereo in and you car gets stolen, if you didnt advise the insurance company the $1,000 stereo was in there in the first place before the theft then they WILL NOT pay you for it.

If they insured it as a stock car then thats what your pay out is going to be for.

And at the end of the day its not your insurance company thats going to foot the bill, they will claim off the insurer or person who's fault the accident was.

Windza · 24-10-2007, 05:39 PM

It's fraud - pure and simple - here's an example... you don't advise them you lowered the car because you know they won't cover you (I'm not implying thats the situation)... you have an accident (doesn't matter if you caused it or not) and then fit standard springs and make the claim. Legally the insurance company does not have to pay out because you had made modifications that they were not aware of - so if they do, it is because you have made a fraudulent claim... I'm no expert on the matter - but I can guarantee it wouldn't shine favourably on the person making the claim !

Windza · 24-10-2007, 05:46 PM

To emphasis the point - From the JCI Policy

Quote:

ARE YOU COVERED -
If your car was converted, altered or modified from its maker’s specifications. NO
But we have provided you with written agreement to cover the modification. YES

So if you have modified the vehicle and not told them - they are not bound to pay. So you return the vehicle to spec after the fact and make the claim - you have lied and acted fraudulently... simple .

Swinny03 · 24-10-2007, 05:50 PM

wow im sorry to here about your fairmont :( . reading that insurance stuff makes me not want to mod my eb, id be to scared to crash it

Windza · 24-10-2007, 06:00 PM

I did forget my manners - it's not nice to hear of the write-off and I do hope it all works out to your advantage!

blur1 · 24-10-2007, 06:05 PM

it's all irrelevant if the other persons insurance is covering it anyway. just leave it as crashed.

gthofan · 24-10-2007, 06:39 PM

exactly blur1! doesnt matter an ounce of crap what mods have been done to your car. It wasnt your fault. You get market value, done and done.

**Sorted** · 24-10-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windza

It's fraud - pure and simple - here's an example... you don't advise them you lowered the car because you know they won't cover you (I'm not implying thats the situation)... you have an accident (doesn't matter if you caused it or not) and then fit standard springs and make the claim. Legally the insurance company does not have to pay out because you had made modifications that they were not aware of - so if they do, it is because you have made a fraudulent claim... I'm no expert on the matter - but I can guarantee it wouldn't shine favourably on the person making the claim !

Now your talking about your duty of disclosure to disclose all facts that may increase the insurers risk.........

If you reduce the insurers risk you don't have to disclose that..........

It would be classified as fraud if the assessor assessed the vehicle with the wheels on then "items" removed the wheels before they took the car away.

If the wheels arent on there when the assessor assess es the vehicle then the pay out wont include a settlement value for the wheels.

ALSO the third party is probably thankful that he has taken the wheels off as it reduce the amount they have to pay.

I know what your getting at but at the end of the day if it reduces the insurers payout there is not a chance in hell they would go to court to deny a claim with a reduced pay out as they would loose and we all know that unless an insurer is 100% they will win a case they wont go to court as its a waste of resources and profit

**El Venom** · 24-10-2007, 07:38 PM

if the car is written of you should be able to get the car back if you and the insurance can work out a salvage price. I got them to agree to a figure of $300 0n my eb and i sold it for $250 and kept all the dvd system and a few other peices

items · 24-10-2007, 08:07 PM

i just hope i can get it back after it gets asessed. just spewing because it wasnt my fault. cant get the front speakers out or el mirrors off because the doors are stuck. have to start again now. thinking of getting a xh ute for work. does any body now if the wade cam, extractors, k&n flat pannel filter will go in to a xh.

gthofan · 24-10-2007, 08:19 PM

you will get a choice. Either keep the salvage value, on top of market value, or keep the wreck and recieve market value, But no salvage money. Which tiypically is about $300

**Sorted** · 24-10-2007, 08:55 PM

Watch out with this salvage talk..........

Years ago when a vehicle was written off the assessor would go to various different wreckers and get the wreckers to put in offers to buy the wreck.

They would accept the highest offer and if you were able to match the offer then you could keep the wreck as it was nice and easy and simple for the insurer to deduct the salvage value out of your pay out instead of them waiting for a wrecker to pay them.

THESE DAYS with most insurers when a vehicle is written off you dont get the choice to buy the wreck as they send the wreck to Auction Yards like FOWLES, you can buy the wreck at Auction if you like.

Reason they do this is that they have found they get much more money if the vehicle is sent to Auction at FOWLES or similar.

Easier for the assessor as well as they dont have the hassle of going to the wreckers asking them if they want the wreck and if they want to buy it and how much for.

As you can see its much simpler and faster and less hassle to the insurer if the send it to an Auction Yard.

As i said this is way with most insurers, some still do it the old way but its rare............

Also watch out as some insurers, not all, will keep the balance of your registration

And also note that if they pay out on a total write off your insurance policy has been completed and they will keep the balance of the insurance premium that is left.

So if you had just paid your renewal you can say good bye to the balance.

Maybe you can ask them to add the balance of the insurance premium paid to the claim as that's a loss due to the claim.

**aussiblue** · 24-10-2007, 10:13 PM

Actually if you haven't yet claimed against either insurer yet, usually you are not forced to deal with either insurance company at all beyond notifying your insurer of what has happened and how you intent to proceed. You can then make a claim against the driver of the other car and its then technically between him/her and their insurer. This would allow you to negotiate with the other driver (meaning indirectly with his or her insurer over a settlement figure) which might include some consideration of you keeping the car if you wanted to.

Of course the other party's insurer will want to go down the knock for knock arrangement path and settle for your insurer's write off value and sell the car separately but I doubt your insurance policy contract will/can force you to do this. At the end of the day the car is your property which gives you some relatively secure rights in terms of its possession and disposal. I been down this path with a car I wanted to keep and the other party's insurer let me keep the car and settled for the estimated difference between the right off value and their estimate of the salvage value. I was happy with offer and it gave them certainty in terms of what it was going to cost them and saved them organising disposal etc

Initially the insurers tried to bully down the usual path of claiming from them but once I made it clear I was prepared to pursue action against the other driver and wasn't going to have someone force me to dispose of my property the played ball (they also had the interests of their client the other driver to look after).

**aussiblue** · 24-10-2007, 10:50 PM

Hmm I lost my edits of that post. Oh well to add: Note I also had some quotes on repair and salvage values and was prepared to be reasonable. Once they understood I wasn't trying to play extortionist and would accept a reasonable offer in terms of the difference between write off value and likely salvage values they were also pretty easy to deal with. If it went court you would expect to get something like the difference between salvage value and replacement value.

private9 · 24-10-2007, 10:58 PM

Technically, Windza is right.

I'd be pulling all the mods off and returning the car to standard (make sure you put the standard parts back on, will be pretty obvious if parts are missing!), and then let the insurer do whatever they like with the wreck.

**aussiblue** · 24-10-2007, 11:00 PM

It's only insurance fraud if you choose to make a claim against the insurer. No claim no fraud.

MotherNatureVer2 · 25-10-2007, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Actually if you haven't yet claimed against either insurer yet, usually you are not forced to deal with either insurance company at all beyond notifying your insurer of what has happened and how you intent to proceed. You can then make a claim against the driver of the other car and its then technically between him/her and their insurer. This would allow you to negotiate with the other driver (meaning indirectly with his or her insurer over a settlement figure) which might include some consideration of you keeping the car if you wanted to.

Of course the other party's insurer will want to go down the knock for knock arrangement path and settle for your insurer's write off value and sell the car separately but I doubt your insurance policy contract will/can force you to do this. At the end of the day the car is your property which gives you some relatively secure rights in terms of its possession and disposal. I been down this path with a car I wanted to keep and the other party's insurer let me keep the car and settled for the estimated difference between the right off value and their estimate of the salvage value. I was happy with offer and it gave them certainty in terms of what it was going to cost them and saved them organising disposal etc

Initially the insurers tried to bully down the usual path of claiming from them but once I made it clear I was prepared to pursue action against the other driver and wasn't going to have someone force me to dispose of my property the played ball (they also had the interests of their client the other driver to look after).

Hmm I lost my edits of that post. Oh well to add: Note I also had some quotes on repair and salvage values and was prepared to be reasonable. Once they understood I wasn't trying to play extortionist and would accept a reasonable offer in terms of the difference between write off value and likely salvage values they were also pretty easy to deal with. If it went court you would expect to get something like the difference between salvage value and replacement value.

Thanks for saving me typing too much :P

If you conduct yourself properly with the insurance company of the offending driver things can happen this way

Windza · 25-10-2007, 08:54 AM

Guys - as I said - I'm really no expert on the matter but the reason I pushed the point what because Items was suggesting something you'd be better off being discreet about - certainly not advertising it publicly... we also didn't know if the driver at fault had insurance which made it even a little dicier. It also depends on your insurer - some will genuinely help out (Suncorp in my experience) and some will go out of there way to protect their own interest (RACQ - also from experience). I have had RACQ question just about every word said in a phone conversation in an attempt to wean their way out of paying - needless to say I'll never go with them again.... all the best to the OP anyways !

**Sorted** · 25-10-2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by private9

Technically, Windza is right.

Yes he is if he has modded his car in anyway and has not advised the insurer so even before this accident it is Fraud.

MotherNatureVer2 · 25-10-2007, 09:49 AM

In the original post I am not reading that he hasnt advised his insurer of any mods.

I am reading that he is worried he will loose some of the things he has put on the car and wants to keep them should he not be successful in retaining the vehicle and only being paid a market value. We all know that even with the mods on our vehicles and the insurance company knowing about them doesn't mean that they will pay what the mods have cost us should a right off occur. This is where agreed value is handy

I have just recently re-insured my car & was told by all bar one insurance company that any mods were ok as long as the were roadworthy and safe. I would suggest anyone curious about what mods they are allowed ring their insurer to find out.

Some companies dont allow any ....... most of the majors are finally getting with the times & will allow some.

EA2BA · 25-10-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

Yes he is if he has modded his car in anyway and has not advised the insurer so even before this accident it is Fraud.

It would not be fraud but breach of contract ?

**Sorted** · 25-10-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EA2BA

It would not be fraud but breach of contract ?

Well the fraud word was getting thrown around so I thought I would use it as well to keep the theme going.

Actually it would be a failure to comply with your duty of disclosure.

ANYWAY "items" is the other driver/car insured?

LTDHO · 25-10-2007, 12:13 PM

This post should clear up some points with facts. (do not take any quote as personal)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

Its not fraud if you didnt advise the insurance company of the mods in the first place

No that would be disclosure and enough to deny a claim and policy. If the items were seen to have contributed to the accident, then that is fraud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windza

It's fraud - pure and simple

Not so pure and simple!

Quote:

Originally Posted by blur1

it's all irrelevant if the other persons insurance is covering it anyway.

No it's not. If you claim through your insurer, then you are claiming through your insurer. So you need to meet the terms of your policy. If you claim of the other persons insurance, then your car can almost be in any condition yo0u want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

Years ago when a vehicle was written off the assessor would go to various different wreckers and get the wreckers to put in offers to buy the wreck.

Years ago? It still happens for fair salvage estimates.

Quote:

THESE DAYS with most insurers when a vehicle is written off you dont get the choice to buy the wreck as they send the wreck to Auction Yards like FOWLES, you can buy the wreck at Auction if you like.

Yes very true. You then purchase it as a wreck.

Quote:

Reason they do this is that they have found they get much more money if the vehicle is sent to Auction at FOWLES or similar.

How do they make more money by towing a wrecked EB/D to a yard (prob $130) plus pay the yard storage then selling fees (prob another $150) Why would they do this if a wreck told the insurer they would pay $300. At auction the insurer receives $20.

Quote:

Also watch out as some insurers, not all, will keep the balance of your registration

Nothing to watch. Read your policy book or PDS. It will state whether you get it or not. Thay can not take it unless they PDS says so.

Quote:

And also note that if they pay out on a total write off your insurance policy has been completed and they will keep the balance of the insurance premium that is left.

So if you had just paid your renewal you can say good bye to the balance.

Maybe you can ask them to add the balance of the insurance premium paid to the claim as that's a loss due to the claim.

You pay premium to cover your car until the expiry date. In the event your car is a write off, you paid the premium to get paid for the car. There never is ballance. If you claim half way through policy would you expect half your money for the car for half the premium you paid? I think not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussieblue

Actually if you haven't yet claimed against either insurer yet, usually you are not forced to deal with either insurance company

No one is forced to deal with any insurer. It is entirely the decision of the vehicle owner.

**Sorted** · 25-10-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

No that would be disclosure and enough to deny a claim and policy. If the items were seen to have contributed to the accident, then that is fraud.

We are not talking about policy conditions here we were talking about settlement

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Years ago? It still happens for fair salvage estimates..

ESTIMATE for write off, still with most insurers including RACV you dont get the option to buy the wreck on this estimate

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Yes very true. You then purchase it as a wreck...

Agreed on one point...........lol

Quote:

How do they make more money by towing a wrecked EB/D to a yard (prob $130) plus pay the yard storage then selling fees (prob another $150) Why would they do this if a wreck told the insurer they would pay $300. At auction the insurer receives $20....

SO guess all the EA EB ED EF EL Wrecks at FOWLES and the like turnup by accident if this is not the case, they even have claim numbers written on the windscreens - I also said its much simpler and faster and less hassle to the insurer if the send it to an Auction Yard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Nothing to watch. Read your policy book or PDS. It will state whether you get it or not. Thay can not take it unless they PDS says so....

No one reads their PDS, only when it comes to claiming and if you dont point the facts out to members to help them out then they will end up finding out the hard way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

You pay premium to cover your car until the expiry date. In the event your car is a write off, you paid the premium to get paid for the car. There never is ballance. If you claim half way through policy would you expect half your money for the car for half the premium you paid? I think not.....

AGAIN No one reads their PDS, only when it comes to claiming and if you dont point the facts out to members to help them out then they will end up finding out the hard way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

No one is forced to deal with any insurer. It is entirely the decision of the vehicle owner.

Obviously and has already been stated

MotherNatureVer2 · 25-10-2007, 02:07 PM

I have just edited the above three posts. I ask that personal bickering be kept out of the forums and if you have a problem take it to PM.

There is merit in both posts, even if some of it is borderline and some personal opinion, so they have been mostly left untouched but I wont tolerate any schoolboy antics in this forum.

LTDHO · 25-10-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

We are not talking about policy conditions here we were talking about settlement

When claiming and awaiting settlement. Policy conditions need to be met first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

ESTIMATE for write off, still with most insurers including RACV you dont get the option to buy the wreck on this estimate

With cars that are 15 years or less Vicroads have to be updated with the status of a vehicle. This will mean additional cost for the new owner. You agree to these when buying from auction. If you keep the car from a claim you don't agree, yet you still have the cost. Then you will complain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

SO guess all the EA EB ED EF EL Wrecks at FOWLES and the like turnup by accident if this is not the case, they even have claim numbers written on the windscreens - I also said its much simpler and faster and less hassle to the insurer if the send it to an Auction Yard.

Thanks for the sarcasm, but they are sent there for the reason I just gave, also 99% of people don't want the wreck (takes up space, bad memories, etc)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRHEMI

No one reads their PDS, only when it comes to claiming and if you dont point the facts out to members to help them out then they will end up finding out the hard way.
AGAIN No one reads their PDS, only when it comes to claiming and if you dont point the facts out to members to help them out then they will end up finding out the hard way.

So because the PDS isn't read, does that mean it doesn't appy?
Like any contact it is up to the person accepting it to read it in it's entirety.
If you read it, then you will know up front, nothing is hidden and you will not learn the hard way. It is sent out every year so the customer has no excuse not to know what they are entitled to.

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