What's going on over the other side?

[Cobra]

In that 6 speed ZF article from drive, they are claiming that Holdens "all new" model will be here as early as march next year (Melbourne Motor Show debut would be a logical guess), while Ford won't have an all new model till 07. This will leave Ford behind again for atleast a year again just like what happened with the VT and AU.

In case you're wondering, no I don't intend on buying a Holden, and if I were I would be over on the other forum asking questions. What I want to know is what exactly does Holden have planned for the VE or whatever it's going to be called. What are we up against exactly? I hear they will get all new IRS based on Cadilac. I also hear that they are going to have an all new Chassis which is much stronger and rigid, so combined with the heavier IRS will see the next generation Commodore be as heavy as our BA.

They've just had major engine upgrades, maybe the LS2 might filter down to the SS though? Any word on a Turbo? If that Torana concept is anything to go by, and based on how well the XR6T has been selling, I'd be expecting Holden to have an SV6TT some time and tap in to Fords unriavalled market.

What about the transmissions? They've just got new 5 speeds, but from what I've read they are only in the 6's correct? Where is this 5 speed sourced from. Is it not strong enough to be put behind a V8, or do Holden just have an auto in the pipeline specifically designed to fit the V8s? Rumoured also, is a new 6 speed auto for the C6 Corvette. Or they could use the new 6 speed out of the Cadilac XLR-V. Who knows, but I doubt what they have will be better than the ZF box anyway.

I just hope Ford can keep up, and if they do get behind, I hope that it won't be for too long, and Copperhead (or whatever it's called) will blow Holden away.

[Cheahman]

There will definitely be a turbo. Maybe a AWD model. LS2 will probably find its way into the SS and wasnt there talk of a new motor for the HSV? or am I just imagining things lol

[Cobra]

HSV's just got a new motor. Unless you're thinking the GTS will get the 7 litre C6 Z06 motor. I hope they don't as Ford have nothing to compete with this, they will be struggling to compete with the base HSVs, it will be like AU all over again.

[loxxr6]

In case you're wondering, no I don't intend on buying a Holden, and if I were I would be over on the other forum asking questions. What I want to know is what exactly does Holden have planned for the VE or whatever it's going to be called. What are we up against exactly? I hear they will get all new IRS based on Cadilac. I also hear that they are going to have an all new Chassis which is much stronger and rigid, so combined with the heavier IRS will see the next generation Commodore be as heavy as our BA.

I've heard the same.

The current chassis they reckon is "on the limits" of the power the engines are putting thru it so it will get an upgrade and as a result be a heavier car than the current model.

They won't put out the GTS with the new killer engine until the new model and better chassis gets sorted.

[deesun]

or you could look at it another way, Holdens current fair is a heap and they will only just be catching up,I see it as we are the leaders they the followers.After all we had the heaviest and best IRS first and now they see the merits of ours and are following.

[Cobra]

We had the heaviest IRS, and when we introduced our IRS, it was better, but they had it first. So, hence we couldn't have had the better one first, but our first one was better than theirs. It had wanted to be aswell, since it was almost 10 years later we got IRS.

[Polyal]

Yeah you would have to think atleats the following will come:

Turbo
6 speed - sounds crazy but i reakon they will have it and the 5 speed going
new IRS

Remember guys the LS2 (and LS1) are made just for cars. We are stuck with what is basically a truck engine which sucks.

[zetec]

...sucks... a lot of air, pumps out great power and is a very nice engine with very serious balls. How old is the LS1 vs the Boss? What power was the LS1 putting out after only 2 years? It wasn't 260kw in base form and 290kw in warmed up FPV form that's for sure. HSV have only just arrived at BOSS power after about 4 years of development. Give the BOSS 4 years worth of modding, who knows where it might get to!! It already has base technology and specs far superior to the original mid-life Gen 3. Apples with Apples - Please!!!!

[Cobra]

Zetec - Holden severely detuned the LS1 when we first got it in 220 form. Base in the states it produced 257kw in the C5 Corvette.

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by zetec

...sucks... a lot of air, pumps out great power and is a very nice engine with very serious balls. How old is the LS1 vs the Boss? What power was the LS1 putting out after only 2 years? It wasn't 260kw in base form and 290kw in warmed up FPV form that's for sure. HSV have only just arrived at BOSS power after about 4 years of development. Give the BOSS 4 years worth of modding, who knows where it might get to!! It already has base technology and specs far superior to the original mid-life Gen 3. Apples with Apples - Please!!!!

This is true if you look at it from development life angle. However, what if you look at it like this.

1994 Darkside = 5.7 215kw Blue = 5.0 165
1995 Darkside = 230kw(GTS/R) Blue = 5.0 165
1996 Darkside = 5.7 215kw Blue = 5.0 165
1997 Darkside = 5.7 220kw Blue = 5.0 165 200(GT)
1998 Darkside = 5.7 225kw Blue = 5.0 185kw
1999 Darkside = 5.7 250kw Blue = 5.0 200kw
2000 Darkside = 5.7 300kw Blue = 5.0 220kw
2002 Darkside = 5.7 300kw Blue = 5.6 250kw
2004 Darkside = 5.7 300kw Blue = 5.4 290kw
2005 Darkside = 6.0 297kw Blue = 5.4 290kw

I think we have been playing catch up to an extent.
(figures are representitive, and off the top of my head - quite likely there are a few probs in there, but you get the drift)

[Steffo]

Just to correct that... in 94 we had the ED Sprint.. blue = 5.0 195kW...
'95 and '96 had the EF/EFII XR8s... blue = 5.0 170kW
'97 had XR8 (185kW) and Tickford Fairlane (195kW).. and as you mentioned.. GT (200kW)
'99 Had 220kW (TS50 AU1)
'99 the Darkside has 300kW (VTII GTS)

As for playing Catch up.. Ford's been doing that since the XB GT ceased production... and hasn't caught up yet.

[Walkinshaw]

Cheers for that, i forgot about the Sprint, and wasnt sure when the TS1/2/3 came in. And wasnt sure if it was 99 or 2000 that the GTS came in.

As for not catching up since XB GT well i believe that to be VERY true.

1979 Darkside = Brocks 5.0 Blue = 351 clevo
1981 Darkside = Brocks 5.0 Blue = 351 clevo
1982 Darkside = Brocks 5.0 Blue = 351 clevo
1983 Darkside = Brocks 5.0 Blue = 4.1
1984 Darkside = Vk GpA Blue = 4.1
1985 Darkside = Brocks 4.9 Blue = 4.1 120kw
1986 Darkside = Brocks 4.9 Blue = 4.1 120kw
1987 Darkside = 4.9 180kw Blue = 4.1 120kw
1988 Darkside = Walkie 180kw Blue = 3.9 139kw
1989 Darkside = 5.0 185kw Blue = 3.9 139kw
1990 Darkside = 5.0 185kw Blue = 3.9 139kw
1991 Darkside = GpA 215kw Blue = 5.0 165kw
1992 Darkside = 5.0 200kw Blue = 5.0 165kw
1993 Darkside = 5.0 200kw Blue = 5.0 200kw
1994 Darkside = 5.7 215kw Blue = 5.0 195kw
1995 Darkside = 230kw(GTS/R) Blue = 5.0 170kw
1996 Darkside = 5.7 215kw Blue = 5.0 170kw
1997 Darkside = 5.7 220kw Blue = 5.0 185(XR8) 200(GT)
1998 Darkside = 5.7 225kw Blue = 5.0 185kw
1999 Darkside = 5.7 300kw Blue = 5.0 220kw
2000 Darkside = 5.7 300kw Blue = 5.0 220kw
2002 Darkside = 5.7 300kw Blue = 5.6 250kw
2004 Darkside = 5.7 300kw Blue = 5.4 290kw
2005 Darkside = 6.0 297kw Blue = 5.4 290kw

Again this really should be somwehere else but is does reinforce how long we have been playing catch up for. Be getting on to 30 years now.

[OLS108]

but remember that your 290kw "boss" is only about 285 holden Kw
guys i am a holden fan but i like all performace cars, having said that i would most likey Never buy a Blue oval car but i can still look at them at say that sounds/looks good.
enjoy your weekend boys :

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by OLS108

but remember that your 290kw "boss" is only about 285 holden Kw

this is also dead true!!

[XtRmn8]

It might be a great engine but to me it seems that the 5.4 litre V8 is a bit of a dud! Yes id does make some good power, but these results do not translate to straight-line speed.

For example my mates 6 speed 01 Maloo with 247rwkw (edit+port+cam+exhaust) has run a 12.7 quater at the plex on his second run. Yet there are a couple of GT/GT-P's that are pulling 280rwkw+ and are still running 13's.

The BA is a great car. I love my BA and would never buy a Commodore, but you cannot deny the fact that Holden have had it all over Ford for too long! One thing that I am hoping for and this is high hoping but I think it would be more beneficial to see all alloy engines in both the IL6 and V8 for the upcoming BA update. Both the IL6 and V8 are bloody heavy things. If they were all-alloy this would drop the weight of the BA by close to 100kg in the V8. Also it would do wonders for fuel consumption too.

I am looking forward to see what Ford will do with the BA update. I hope and believe that they will do the right thing. More power would be nice, but there are many other issues that need to be sorted before adding more power! I would rather a car that is a bit better built and more advanced (alloy engines, DOHC, 6 speed man/auto, etc).

What’s the go with the new 6.2L V8 from Ford? Any news on that thing? Or is it just another great truck engine?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by XtRmn8

What’s the go with the new 6.2L V8 from Ford? Any news on that thing? Or is it just another great truck engine?

I've heard that they've scapped the 6.2 V8.

[Cobra]

So as it stands it looks like Holden will get the following for their new model in march 06 :-
6 Speed auto
All new chassis
All new IRS
LS2 for SS (unconfirmed)
Possibly a (Twin)Turbo for V6

I don't knwo how good thier IRS, new chassis, and 6 speed auto will be, but it couldn't be any worse than what they had previously. Once they have those things sorted, it doesn't look like we'll have the wood on them any longer. Hopefully their chassis will be alot heavier, which will put less pressure on Ford/FPV to need more power to compete in a striaght line. Still, even when FPV had 30kw more than HSVs in series 1, they still were quicker, so I don't think Ford/FPV will ever have it over Holden in a striahgt line.

[Chucky]

From what I've heard around the traps the VE is quite a bit porkier than the VZ. All new chassis, Caddy IRS which is a heavy unit should bode well for the Falcon.
Unconfirmed I've also heard that SS will keep the LS1 for series 1 but get a detuned LS2 for series 2. Remember GM-H's trend for all new model, same powerplants. They only put new powerplants into their cars once they sort the chassis (ie S2) .Haven't heard anthing on a turbo 6 though. You'd be nuts to think it wouldn't be there though.

Must admit I'm really looking forward to VE. I can't wait to see exactly what sort of car Holden can design & build on their own without (major) help from Detroit or Europe.

One feature I'm waiting to see is if Commodore will finally get a split fold rear seat. If it does then they've taken a lot of the structural ridigity from the rear parcel shelf & put it into the chassis. Long overdue from Commode IMO..

Melb Motor Show is also the launch I've heard.. They want to steal the thunder from Copperhead launch in Sept.

[Smoke Pursuit]

The TS50 Mk1 only had 200 kw steffo...
The MK2 had the 220...

[loxxr6]

I've heard that they've scapped the 6.2 V8.

I've heard the same. They're now concentrating on the 5l Cammer engine from what i've been told.

[loxxr6]

Again this really should be somwehere else but is does reinforce how long we have been playing catch up for. Be getting on to 30 years now.

Despite the deficit in power with the T3 Vs GTS etc, didn't we have it over them in a straight line then ???

I thought when the stroker 5.6 was released that we had a quicker model at that stage than the equivalent Holden.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by ShockWaveXR6na

The TS50 Mk1 only had 200 kw steffo...
The MK2 had the 220...

TE50 had 200kw, TS had 220kw (auto only).

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by ShockWaveXR6na

The TS50 Mk1 only had 200 kw steffo...
The MK2 had the 220...

http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=4.78

Originally Posted by FPV.com.au

AU TS50/AUII TE50: SVO alloy heads with larger valves and ports, 70 mm throttle body, oil cooler, special camshaft, 220 kW@5250rpm, 435Nm@4,000rpm.

[Blue Oval Mopar Man]

Ztec, the boss motor has been around for more than ten years mate

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

Ztec, the boss motor has been around for more than ten years mate

Try 7 years
The 5.4 DOHC was first used in the Lincoln Navigator in 1998

Are Holden even going to keep the SS as part of the lineup? I read a review of the VZ SS and the conclusion was that the SV8 offered much better value for money which led me to believe they're only keeping the SS around for name-recognition while they establish street-cred for the SV*'s. That true or are they going to keep the SS brand around for a while?

[FoxMulder]

Whilst I think that it would be great for FPV to put more power into their line-up. I think that their current strategy is a better one. Unlike the Holden's, who go for power and speed. Ford and FPV go for driveability. Seeing as how the cars are usually driven on the regular roads, I think that the quality of driving comes before the performance. From all the reviews I've read on Holden vs Ford, It's the Ford that always wins on the quality/comfort of the drive. (whilst it usually falls short of the performance, but not by much).

The reviews tend to say the same things, that with the holdens you have to fight it through the corners, whereas with the fords, it's almost like it glides through. Not to mention the fact that the reviewers don't like the holden gearboxes. On the latest review they commented on how effortlessly the BA T6 shifts, as opposed to the VZ T6. And their pretty much the same gearbox.

I would love for ford to come out with an all out powerhouse, but not at the cost of the drive quality.

[OLS108]

Originally Posted by FoxMulder

Whilst I think that it would be great for FPV to put more power into their line-up. I think that their current strategy is a better one. Unlike the Holden's, who go for power and speed. Ford and FPV go for driveability. Seeing as how the cars are usually driven on the regular roads, I think that the quality of driving comes before the performance. From all the reviews I've read on Holden vs Ford, It's the Ford that always wins on the quality/comfort of the drive. (whilst it usually falls short of the performance, but not by much).

The reviews tend to say the same things, that with the holdens you have to fight it through the corners, whereas with the fords, it's almost like it glides through. Not to mention the fact that the reviewers don't like the holden gearboxes. On the latest review they commented on how effortlessly the BA T6 shifts, as opposed to the VZ T6. And their pretty much the same gearbox.

I would love for ford to come out with an all out powerhouse, but not at the cost of the drive quality.

i cant agree more i am sick of reading that in Wheels & Motor, it might be true i cant really say one is better thent he other cause i have never drivin a new falcon.
but most times us holden guys just flip though to the bit where it shows 1/4 mile times :

[AUIII XR8 MAN]

Originally Posted by OLS108

i cant agree more i am sick of reading that in Wheels & Motor, it might be true i cant really say one is better thent he other cause i have never drivin a new falcon.
but most times us holden guys just flip though to the bit where it shows 1/4 mile times :

Most blokes & some gals do the same, go striaght for the 1/4 mile time to see who win & that why Holden sells more.

[Dez]

Originally Posted by AUIII XR8 MAN

Most blokes & some gals do the same, go striaght for the 1/4 mile time to see who win & that why Holden sells more.

spot on the money there....

without wanting to generalise holden fans, 1 for example (my mate) will ALWAYS go to 1/4 mile times and use that as his entire argument. they aren't interested in a total performance car, because their car is faster in a straight line....

as for the fords being more driver friendly etc, thats great, but if its a performance car, it shouldnt be expected to ride like a fairmont luxury car.

key word in FPV is performance.

when i told him that the BA falcon beat the VZ 190kw commo down the 1/4, his argument was (and he has driven both) "the ford doesnt feel powerful"

LOL, it doesnt feel powerful, but it beats the holden....wonder which 1 i'd prefer.