Hydrogen technology - will it ever be feasible?

[vztrt]

Seems that Toyota think its feasible.

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0507-uhsr.html

Hydrogen vehicle on sale by 2015
RICHARD BLACKBURN
May 7, 2010 - 10:14AM

Toyota says it could be selling a fuel-cell hydrogen vehicle in the United States by 2015.

Toyota could have an affordable hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle on the market in the United States by 2015.

The car maker has told Bloomberg news service in the US that it has drastically reduced the cost of producing fuel-cell vehicles in the past few years and may be able to sell a hydrogen model for about $US50,000 ($55,600).

That would bring it roughly into line with electric vehicles being developed by competitors including General Motors, which will begin selling the Volt plug-in hybrid later this year.

Toyota's managing director for advanced autos, Yoshihiko Masuda, told Bloomberg the car would have a range equal to a petrol-powered car, giving it an advantage over current electric cars, most of which have a range of less than 200km.

He said the company had managed to reduce the cost of producing a fuel-cell vehicle from about $1 million a car some years ago to roughly $100,000. It needed to cut that by half before retail sales were viable.

"Our target is, we don't lose money with introduction of the vehicle," Masuda told Bloomberg. "Production cost should be covered within the price of the vehicle."

Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles have been pushed into the background as the industry searches for an answer to dwindling oil resources, with many dismissing the technology as too expensive.

After initially supporting the technology, the US Government has effectively abandoned it in favour of plug-in electric vehicles. Last year, the US Energy Department handed out $10 billion in financial support to electric vehicle research and development, while cutting fuel-cell funding to $68 million. It was later increased to about $190 million.

Despite the lack of government support, some of the world's biggest car makers – including Toyota, General Motors, Daimler AG, Honda and Hyundai – are pressing ahead with plans to have fuel-cell vehicles on sale by 2015.

Honda and Toyota both have fuel cell trials going in the United States, but a lack of refuelling infrastructure is hampering the commercialisation of fuel cell vehicles. Unlike plug-in electric vehicles, which can be hooked up to a domestic power point, fuel-cell vehicles need an extensive network of fuelling stations.

But advocates argue that once that network is in place – modifying the existing fuel station network is an obvious solution - fuel-cells have significant advantages over electric cars. They can be refuelled quickly, they have much longer range and they are not hooked up to an electricity grid that uses brown coal.

Toyota says it has been able to cut costs by reducing the use of platinum in its fuel cells. Platinum plays a vital role in the chemical process that occurs when hydrogen and oxygen are mixed in a fuel cell to produce electricity.

The company says further cost benefits will come when it begins mass production of fuel-cell vehicles.

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/67006/to...icles-by-2015/

Toyota to sell hydrogen vehicles by 2015

May 10, 2010 by Alborz Fallah

The world’s largest manufacturer, Toyota Motor Corp., has announced that it’s likely to retails its first hydrogen vehicle at around $56,000 ($50,000 USD) by 2015. The Japanese company has managed to cut the cost of making fuel-cell vehicles by around 90 percent since work on the project began in mid-2000s.

According to an interview with Yoshihiko Masuda, Toyota’s managing director for advanced autos, the first hydrogen model will be a sedan, capable of equal range to its petrol powered variants, “with some extra cost”.

“Our target is, we don’t lose money with introduction of the vehicle, production cost should be covered within the price of the vehicle.” Masuda told Autonews.

Although being the biggest seller of hybrid vehicles, hydrogen cars in general are yet to find a foothold in the market. Analysts predict hydrogen cars may become a viable option of they don’t sell at a loss. They will nonetheless face some tough competition from electric cars.

A number of leading manufacturers such as General Motors, Honda, Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai and of course Toyota are all in the late stages of producing hydrogen vehicles that should hit showrooms by 2015.

[xtremerus]

From previous article

"Honda and Toyota both have fuel cell trials going in the United States, but a lack of refuelling infrastructure is hampering the commercialisation of fuel cell vehicles. Unlike plug-in electric vehicles, which can be hooked up to a domestic power point, fuel-cell vehicles need an extensive network of fuelling stations."

THATS that problem.

A bit like buying a 3D TV, and there is nothing to watch in 3D.
But, at least you can still watch ordinary television.

The fuel-cell car will sit in the driveway to look at, until you can drive it somewhere to fill it up.

[vztrt]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/11/g...ucture-in-haw/

General Motors to establish pilot hydrogen infrastructure in Hawaii

by Sam Abuelsamid (RSS feed) on May 11th 2010 at 5:00PM



Hawaii is set to get the first hydrogen fueling infrastructure in the United States thanks to a pilot project announced today by General Motors and The Gas Company. The Gas Company is the local natural gas and propane utility on the island state. Hawaii makes an ideal location for testing new transportation technologies as a result of its isolation, and the relatively small size of the islands means that you can never get all that far from the fueling network.

The Gas Company (TGC) has been producing both synthetic natural gas (SNG) and hydrogen for several years. The SNG that it distributes to customers through its island pipeline network is currently blended with five percent hydrogen, a percentage that could be increased as needed.

The new pilot project will set up a network of 20-25 hydrogen filling stations on Oahu that will tap directly into the pipeline network. Such a network can provide fuel access to to most drivers within a 10 minute drive. Pure hydrogen can be separated from the flow through a pressure swing absorption system and then used to fill fuel cell vehicles. Continue reading after the jump.


With its tropical and remote location, Hawaii has good reason to want to use renewable energy sources since all fossil fuels have to be imported at considerable cost. While sun and wind are both plentiful in Hawaii, the fact that they are not constant makes it problematic for grid stability. The ability to store hydrogen gives it an advantage, especially if it is produced from renewable sources. Hawaii has a goal of achieving 70 percent clean energy within a generation.



Charlie Freese, the director of GM's hydrogen activities discussed the rationale for hydrogen and emphasized energy density. While GM is working on battery electric and range-extended vehicles for various applications, getting longer range is problematic with batteries. Getting a 300 mile range out of diesel, hydrogen or lithium ion batteries requires energy storage systems that weigh 43, 125 and 830 kilograms respectively. Because of this, the future will likely include multiple solutions for different applications.


The challenge is to balance electric drive efficiency and energy cost advantages versus energy system storage mass, volume and refuel time penalties



GM is actively working to develop a mass producable fuel cell system by 2015. The new generation design and manufacturing processes will be able to get precious metal content down to a level comparable to the catalytic converters on current internal combustion vehicles. That will dramatically reduce the cost of the stack. A stack similar in size to current four cylinder engines could provide sufficient electrical output to propel a family sized vehicle.

Jeff Kissell of TGC described the company's synthetic natural gas production. Most of the current gas is produced from naphtha but that is being transitioned to using plant and animal fats as the feedstock. The process also generates hydrogen and liquid byproducts, including green diesel fuel. The current system is able to produce about 7,000 kg of hydrogen per day all of which can be used as vehicle fuel. According to Kissell, that capacity can be doubled if needed. The hydrogen is mixed with the synthetic gas and pumped through the pipelines.



Pressure swing absorption systems at the filling stations separate the hydrogen for fueling and release the rest of the gas back into the pipeline for customers to use. The hydrogen stations would be installed at existing filling stations on the island in partnership with station owners. The cost of adding hydrogen filling capability at an existing station is estimated by TGC's Jeff Kissell at $300,000 to $500,000. Because TGC is state regulated like utilities elsewhere, the company will be filling a tariff for the cost of hydrogen to the filling stations. Although no specific number was given, Kissell estimates that it will be comparable to the cost of gasoline.

With GM's first commercially available fuel cell vehicles still several years out, the automaker is looking to move some of its fleet of fuel cell Chevrolet Equinoxes from Project Driveway to the island. According to Freese, the first of those vehicles is already on Oahu and GM will be making arrangements with current users to redeploy more vehicles. There are currently 119 vehicles in the fleet and they have accumulated more than 1.4 million miles over the past three years. Until the retail vehicles are available only a few stations will be installed. As commercial introduction gets closer a full network of stations will be available.




PRESS RELEASE

GM Looks to Hawaii for Hydrogen Infrastructure Pilot
Collaboration with The Gas Company Plans Stations on Oahu for Fuel Cells

Detroit/Honolulu, May 11 – Abundant hydrogen is available on the island of Oahu to power a ramp up of fuel cell vehicles through a General Motors collaboration with The Gas Company (TGC), Hawaii's major gas energy provider, the two companies announced Tuesday.

TGC produces hydrogen along with synthetic natural gas and delivers it in its utility gas stream, with more than 5 percent hydrogen content today. Through a proprietary separation process, TGC plans to tap into its 1,000-mile utility pipeline system at key locations and separate the hydrogen for use by local fueling stations for fuel cell vehicles.

"This is the type of enabler that a hydrogen transportation infrastructure needs because it addresses both the source of the hydrogen and a feasible way to deliver it for fuel cell vehicle use," said Charles Freese, executive director of GM Global Fuel Cell Activities. "The Hawaii infrastructure could eventually support tens of thousands of fuel cell vehicles.

"Hawaii is uniquely positioned and motivated to make hydrogen-powered fuel cell transportation a reality because it depends on imported petroleum for 90 percent of its energy," he said.

The state is committed to reducing petroleum use by 70 percent through a combination of renewable energy resources, conservation and efficiency. The use of hydrogen as a transportation fuel could be a key contributor.

"We have been delivering as much as 12 percent hydrogen made from renewable sources to our gas customers over the last two to three years and expect we can deliver even greater quantities of hydrogen as demand increases," said Jeffrey Kissel, president and CEO of TGC. "By delivering hydrogen through our existing infrastructure as vehicle fuel wherever we have gas, The Gas Company expands its key role of supporting Hawaii's clean energy future."

Depending how the pricing for the hydrogen is set, it could be available at the equivalent price of gasoline or less.

GM, which has invested more than $1.5 billion in fuel cell transportation in the last 15 years, is developing a production-intent fuel cell system that could be ready for commercialization in 2015. Current Chevrolet Fuel Cell vehicles are part of Project Driveway, the world's largest demonstration of fuel cell vehicles, which has amassed nearly 1.4 million miles of real-world driving by thousands of people since 2007.

U.S. Senator Dan Inouye, D-Hawaii, said he supports the pilot project.


"My small role was one of introduction between these two companies, not that many months ago, which resulted in this business announcement today," Inouye said. "It is an important step forward in the establishment of a hydrogen transportation infrastructure upon which new fleets, both military and civilian, can be tested and utilized. I am committed to support the resourcing of this endeavor.

"Every step to reduce our dependency on foreign oil is a move forward," he said.

The GM-TGC collaboration is the leading edge of a broad consortium of federal and state, non-profit and education organizations that is forming to develop a Hawaii Hydrogen Initiative as part of an integrated energy solution for Hawaii's future.

About General Motors: General Motors, one of the world's largest automakers, traces its roots back to 1908. With its global headquarters in Detroit, GM employs 217,000 people in every major region of the world and does business in some 140 countries. GM and its strategic partners produce cars and trucks in 34 countries, and sell and service these vehicles through the following brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, FAW, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, Opel, Vauxhall and Wuling. GM's largest national market is the United States, followed by China, Brazil, Germany, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Italy. GM's OnStar subsidiary is the industry leader in vehicle safety, security and information services. General Motors acquired operations from General Motors Corporation on July 10, 2009, and references to prior periods in this and other press materials refer to operations of the old General Motors Corporation. More information on the new General Motors can be found at HYPERLINK "http://www.gm.com"www.gm.com.

About The Gas Company: The Gas Company LLC has been in business since 1904 and has a workforce of 300. It provides clean, reliable and energy-efficient gas to residential, business and government customers throughout the state of Hawaii - Oahu, Maui, Hawaii, Kauai, Molokai and Lanai. TGC manufactures synthetic natural gas (SNG) and hydrogen at its high-capacity plant located on Oahu for delivery through a 1,000-mile pipeline network, and supplies propane gas (LPG) statewide. More information on TGC is available at www.hawaiigas.com.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/green-mot...519-1etnu.html

Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle charge continues
Richard Blackburn
May 19, 2011 - 7:54AM

The dawn of the hydrogen-powered fuel-cell vehicle is closer than predicted, with a Chinese car maker the latest to commit to a production vehicle by 2015.

Chinese car maker Shanghai Automotive (SAIC) will have a plug-in fuel-cell vehicle on sale by 2015, joining the growing ranks of makers who will offer hydrogen-powered cars in the next few years.

Both Mercedes-Benz and Toyota have predicted they will have fuel-cell vehicles commercially available by 2015, while the Hyundai/Kia group is targeting an even closer date. Honda already leases a fuel cell vehicle - the FCX Clarity - in the United States and Japan as part of a development program.

The new Chinese vehicle has a twist on the fuel-cell theme, though. Its vehicle can also be charged from a conventional power-point. Most development prototype fuel-cell vehicles don't offer this option, preferring to charge the car's battery pack solely via the on-board fuel cell.

But the general manager of SAIC's new electric vehicle division, Pin Gan, says the Shanghai (a working title only) will employ the fuel-cell as a range extender for the battery system, in much the same way that General Motors uses a conventional petrol engine to recharge its batteries on the run. The system would extend the range of the electric vehicle from its current 150km to 500km, the same as a conventional petrol car.

Gan says that this method allows them to use a smaller fuel-cell, which cuts the cost and weight penalties.
"We can then bring it in at a reasonable cost," Gan says.

That cost is still likely to be prohibitive, with the car likely to cost roughly $80,000, although subsidies from the Chinese government would halve the cost to the motorist.

The main enemy to fuel-cell acceptance is lack of infrastructure, but Gan says the car is likely to launch in five Chinese cities that will build the refuelling stations necessary.

British firm Intelligent Energy, which has developed a fuel-cell version of the London cab, is equally bullish about the prospects of hydrogen power.

The company's director of communications, Dr Jon Moore, says concerns about refuelling infrastructure have been overstated.

"The cost of developing hydrogen infrastructure is substantially less than the cost of maintaining existing petrol infrastructure," he says.

He believes the overall running costs of fuel-cell vehicles will rival petrol cars within a few years.

"There is nothing inherently expensive about fuel-cell technology. It's only expensive now because the cars are made in smaller numbers," he says.

He says fuel-cell vehicles are far more practical as a long-term solution than electric vehicles powered by the grid.

"Anyone who buys a battery electric vehicle as their family car is going to have to change their lifestyle because of the limited range," he says.

Fuel-cell vehicles would be able to match the range of petrol-powered cars in the near future.

A recent study commissioned by some of the world's leading car makers also paints a positive picture of the future of fuel-cell vehicles.

The report, prepared by consultants McKinsey and Company for several carmakers, says that recent breakthroughs in fuel-cell technology have "increased their efficiency and cost-competitiveness significantly".

The report, released late last year, used confidential data supplied by car makers to map out a range of scenarios covering all types of electric vehicles. Companies that supplied data to the study included Toyota, Ford, General Motors, Volkswagen, Hyundai, Honda, BMW, Nissan and Daimler AG.

The report found that limited battery capacity and driving range, as well as long recharging times, would confine plug-in battery vehicles to urban driving.

It concluded that fuel-cell vehicles, with range and performance comparable to conventional petrol-engined cars, were the best solution for family cars covering longer distances.

"These segments account for 50 per cent of all cars and 75 per cent of CO2 emissions... FCEVs are therefore an effective low-carbon solution for a large proportion of the car fleet," it said.

The report found that after 2030, fuel-cell vehicles would provide the lowest total cost of ownership of any electric vehicles and comparable costs to petrol cars, depending on the regulatory environment. It also dismissed concerns about infrastructure, finding that the cost of building a hydrogen refuelling infrastructure would be just 5 per cent of the overall cost of a fuel-cell vehicle.

"The cost of infrastructure (5 per cent of the total cost of ownership) will not be prohibitive to its roll-out."

The cost of ownership advantage of petrol-powered cars is likely to be eroded by legislation, particularly in Europe where more governments are imposing financial burdens on conventional cars.

The UK sales manager for electric car maker Mia, Richard Deslandes , says government subsidies and EV-friendly legislation will make them a more attractive financial proposition.

"In Britain, once you add up the London congestion tax exemption, free parking, free charging, reduced insurance premiums and other peripheral savings you could be looking at annual running cost savings of 3500 Euros a year," he says.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by ads

+1.

From an engineering standpoint, hydrogen is very inefficient. You have to generate the electricity and convert water into hydrogen (+ oxygen). This process is at best around 20% efficient, i.e. for every Joule of energy you pump into the water, 0.2 Joules is recoverable and the rest is lost as either heat up a cooling tower or to the oxygen.

Put that through an internal combustion engine (like the V12 7 series someone mentioned) which is about 20% efficient and you end up with about 4% of the energy you originally made as electricity actually hitting the road. That's incredibly wasteful.

Even with an 80% efficient fuel cell you only get 16% efficiency from power station to tarmac.

Compare that to our already established electricity grid, which can get power drom power station to your power point at about 80% efficiency (a shade optimistic mebbe). Electic cars will probably then be about 80% efficient at charging a battery and then converting the stored energy later on into useable power - that's 64% efficiency from power station to tarmac, which is actually quite good.

BTW, my numbers are approximate so please no one come and say "well actually internal combustions engines are 28.39% efficient or whatever - you get my point. Obviously if I'm completely wrong go ahead and correct me.

I don't think anyone wants to hear how inefficient it is to produce and use hydrogen...they just want to hear the magic words that a car "can run on it"...that's obviously the solution to all our problems. Please ignore the massive costs involved and pollution created just to get that kilogram of hydrogen into your tank...

[BHDOGS]

I read somewhere they have invented a new catalyst for hydrogen made out of cheaper materials ah yes here is the link http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0421141628.htm

[BHDOGS]

Cheaper Hydrogen Fuel Cells: Utility of Non-Precious-Metal Catalysts Documented

ScienceDaily (Apr. 25, 2011) — Los Alamos National Laboratory scientists have developed a way to avoid the use of expensive platinum in hydrogen fuel cells, the environmentally friendly devices that might replace current power sources in everything from personal data devices to automobiles.

In a paper published April 21 in Science, Los Alamos researchers Gang Wu, Christina Johnston, and Piotr Zelenay, joined by researcher Karren More of Oak Ridge National Laboratory, describe the use of a platinum-free catalyst in the cathode of a hydrogen fuel cell. Eliminating platinum -- a precious metal more expensive than gold -- would solve a significant economic challenge that has thwarted widespread use of large-scale hydrogen fuel cell systems.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I don't think anyone wants to hear how inefficient it is to produce and use hydrogen...they just want to hear the magic words that a car "can run on it"...that's obviously the solution to all our problems. Please ignore the massive costs involved and pollution created just to get that kilogram of hydrogen into your tank...

Energy efficiency of the process is not really a relevant factor if the energy running the process is for free, wind, tides....sunlight, efficiency is a problem when the energy source is co2 producing fossil fuel and we have to pay some arabs top dollar for it.

[FalconXV]

Biomass and algae then seem like the only sustainable transport solutions. Has anyone toyed with the idea of in-car sequestration?
Not to hijack the thread, hydrogen is going nowhere ( except Geothermal based HyNor) and seems a massive w@nk.