Sick of hearing about it!!!

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

if you have to exceed the speed limit to overtake some thing then your breaking the law aren't you,,i wonder how many dead people there are that thought the same thing..

Ok, lets put you into a situation. You are following a semi-trailer. Its doing 85 in a 100 zone. You can overtake, but to do so you have to cross on to the wrong side of the road. There are no overtaking zones for a long time. So you decide to over take, you accelerate to 100, you start going down a little hill, a car comes around a corner maybe a k or so away (not to dangerous). The truck then starts to accelerate down the hill(as they do rather quickly) so that you are not passing it as fast. You are nearing the front but the other car is always getting closer. What would you do.

A:Slam your brakes on and swerve back in behind the truck, putting yourself in extreme danger.
B:Continue to go along at 100 as you dont want to speed, or youll have one of those speed related crashes that happen as soon as you go 101,
Or C:Accelerate to 110, 120, to get around safely, missing the car by along shot, and not putting anyone in too much danger.
I know what I would choose.

[naughtyfalcon]

there will never be any justification for over powering a vehicle no matter what it is..

if that is your main aim in life then i hope your not the next person i pull form a wrecked car,,or watch as the coroner takes you away in the wagon..wrapped in a black plastic bag with your name on a toe tag....

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

there will never be any justification for over powering a vehicle no matter what it is..

Lets see then. I have 3 cars.

1#1968 VW Beetle, 32hp, 0 to 100kmh in about, oh say 3 mins.

2#1978 V12 Jaguar with a 5 speed manual box. Dont know the HP but it used to costs me heaps in rear tyres.

3# The AUII Fairlane in the avatar.

From what I cam understand of your theory is that the only one that's safe on the road (ie:not overpowered) is the Beetle! Try driving it at 60kmh on a wet road with a gusty crosswind!!

---if speed kills, how come all motor racing drivers aren't dead?---

[The Monty]

Also, my Uncle died in a motorbike accident at 20 Ks an hour. Im pretty sure he wasnt speeding, as it was an 80 zone.

[Deadman]

at the end of the day guys, some people just don't want to listen or try to understand a bit more about driver training and road saftey :(

unfortunately, neither do the politicians...

[Bobman]

If speed was such a major factor in every car accident don't you think more police fatalities would occur...

Driver training & better roads are the answers.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by wicked

If speed was such a major factor in every car accident don't you think more police fatalities would occur...

Silly argument. Firstly they're better trained as you've alluded below. Secondly, the speed you're travelling certainly has a major factor if you collide with another object. A collision at 50kph is more likely going to be more favourable than a collision at 150kph.

Originally Posted by wicked

Driver training & better roads are the answers.

A combination of both, certainly.. but who's going to pay for it? :(

[Blue Oval Mopar Man]

Originally Posted by Rodp

but who's going to pay for it? :(

User pays rodp, like everything ! Ok so its going to cost dollars, but how much do you put on someones life ? The cost to Australia for just 1 fatal crash is phanominal . Not sure how much but it costs tens of thousands of dallars when one happens and that isnt counting the loss of a life or the injured survivers. If we can prevent some or alot of them happening , many people will be better off !

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

User pays rodp, like everything ! Ok so its going to cost dollars, but how much do you put on someones life ? The cost to Australia for just 1 fatal crash is phanominal . Not sure how much but it costs tens of thousands of dallars when one happens and that isnt counting the loss of a life or the injured survivers. If we can prevent some or alot of them happening , many people will be better off !

Was talking more about the roads than driver training when it came to costs.

The gumbyment had the 4x4 scheme where 4c per litre was tacked onto petrol specifically for roads in NSW, but when queried they admitted that it just went into combined revenue. So apparently user pays isn't really working since there are many roads in need of repair.

Roads are a large problem in Australia since we have a large land mass without the taxpayers to fund road repair/improvements. I'm already taxed to the hilt, how much more can I be slugged?!

The problem with comparing the cost of driver training/road improvement vs a life is that not all fatal accidents are caused by a lack of these two. I don't think there's a car enthusiast that doesn't believe that driver training needs to be improved I just don't think that enough money will ever be spent on upgrading roads.

[AlbertM]

Lately I think speed is no longer the major fault of alot of accidents. Fatigue and getting into trouble now is.

I did alot of driving around NSW over the break and the all over speed off other drivers was fairly well behaved. However I did notice alot of swerving, wandering and some very stupid breaking moves.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by Rodp

...A combination of both, certainly.. but who's going to pay for it?...

How about the revenue (sorry....fines) from the Greed (sorry....Speed) Cameras??

Originally Posted by Rollin

...they spend so many millions of dollars on "speed kills" advertising...

If speed kills, why was the NT death toll 0?? Again. Speed kills remember? Northern Territory has thousands of kilometres of highway with NO SPEED LIMIT. Why aren't there more people dying in the Northern Territory damnit? It just keeps on happening every holiday season.

I don't care about 'geographical entity' and 'crash exposure risk' or 'traffic densities' in the same way that the government doesn't care about other influencing factors in a crash such as driver training, vehicle condition, road condition, weather conditions etc etc etc. It's always because they were travelling above the posted speed limit.

They keep on spewing out this 'Speed Kills' crap when it obviously does not. Just makes good justification for setting up more speed cameras.

Panda

[Steve D]

I think perhaps my biggest worry at the moment is that the strong emphasis on speed just makes people think that nothing else matters - so they continue to sit under the speed limit in the overtaking lane, send SMSs, sneak into the path of braking trucks and pull out without looking. But it's okay, they're not speeding!

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I think perhaps my biggest worry at the moment is that the strong emphasis on speed just makes people think that nothing else matters - so they continue to sit under the speed limit in the overtaking lane, send SMSs, sneak into the path of braking trucks and pull out without looking. But it's okay, they're not speeding!

Yep, agree 100% - I do a lot of driving/riding in Sydney and this seems to be the probelm - people are so indoctrinated with speeding kills that the Camry driver can cross double white lines, not indicate, chat on their mobile and fail to give way, but hey "im doing 10 kays under the speed limit so im a safe driver"

[EgoFG]

Hmmm ...

I drive by the following rules is order.
1) Safety for those not in cars/trucks (Bike Motorbikes, pedest, prams etc)
2) Safety for those in cars/trucks
3) The law

My flaw is that sometimes "My convenience" slots in between 2 and 3.


The trouble with driver training is that it will not force drivers to follow rules akin to mine.

I believe that the solution is in traffic fines.
Speeding is only the CAUSE of an accident where one driver makes assumptions about the speed of the other based on speed limits.
Speeding makes accidents worse, and therefore could be said to cause road deaths.
But there must always have been something else wrong for the accident to happen.

So the traffic fines should address this.

The worst accidents are often the ones involving more than one car.

So I suggest that offences that relate to awareness of, and courtesy for, other drivers are the ones that should have the biggest penalty.

eg
Existing Rules that should be enforced
Indicator use (lane change, intersection, EXIT OF ROUNDABOUT)
Merging in a zipper
Give Way at intersection
Keep Left unless overtaking (should be also extended to all roads with speed limits above 70)
Headlight offences


I personally find that many road rules encourage people not to think:
40K zones mean I do not have to watch out for kids, just drive at 40 !
70K zones along "bells line of road" means I dont have to watch out for cars entering, blind corners and fog
Not to mention the F3 at mt White.

ENFORCE THE RULES THAT MAKE PEOPLE THINK NOT THE ONES THAT MEAN THEY DO NOT HAVE TO.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by GreenFutura

Keep Left unless overtaking (should be also extended to all roads with speed limits above 70)

GOD YES. Nothing ИИИИes me off more than a stupid old fart in a Camry doing 60 in an 80 zone, sitting in the right hand bloody lane.

I swear one of these days I'm going to make a "keep left dipИИИИ" sign and flash it whenever I pass these morons.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

I swear one of these days I'm going to make a "keep left dipИИИИ" sign and flash it whenever I pass these morons.

I have seen a COP do this to a Camry! Mona Vale Rd on a Sunday, Camry was holding everyone (including one ИИИИed off highway patrol car).

The cop overtakes the Camry on the left, cuts in front of him, then the L.E.D message scrolls across the message board (between the sirens) KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING. The Camry, promptly pulled left and the cop took off along with everyone else.

Would have liked to have seen the Camry booked though... :

[The Monty]

Like the asian lady who couldnt reverse or park.. Hehehe

[The Monty]

Wonderful thread, everyone had an opinion, all were listened to although some were cut down (sorry). Now, how do we send this thread to the minister for whatever,so he can see the publics view on the topic, and can try to do something constructive? Is there an E-mail or anything? Just asking as it would be great for this to be seen by someone like that.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Wonderful thread, everyone had an opinion, all were listened to although some were cut down (sorry). Now, how do we send this thread to the minister for whatever,so he can see the publics view on the topic, and can try to do something constructive? Is there an E-mail or anything? Just asking as it would be great for this to be seen by someone like that.

I send an email about every 12 months or so to the QLD premier on this topic- if enough people do it they might get the point :p

I guess hitting the Aus Government website would give contact details for the transport minister etc...

the more people that keep bugging politicians on this topic the better!

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by Deadman

I send an email about every 12 months or so to the QLD premier on this topic- if enough people do it they might get the point :p

I guess hitting the Aus Government website would give contact details for the transport minister etc...

the more people that keep bugging politicians on this topic the better!

YES, but more so in writing rather than email. Trust me.

oneredED - Good post!

[oneredED]

I am 100% for driver training to be forced upon all drivers on the roads today.

Day in, day out, i see people who sit less than 5 metres behind other cars at 110km/h, in very congested traffic. It amazes me that people can drive like this, and assume "I'll be fine, as long as no-one in this massive line of bumper-to-bumper traffic hits the brakes..." I find this to be particularly exhibited by CITY drivers. I have yet to meet a driver from the what i consider to be the country ("out in the sticks" LOL) who drives this way, as the unexpected is far more "obvious" in the country, and frequent in the form of kangaroos, birds, farm machinery etc, that break up the monotony which can lead to complacency from drivers in the cities who see everyone else driving so close on a regular basis.

My point about tail-gating is shockingly contrasted by taking passengers for a ride in my car (most of which are guilty of this) and showing them the braking ability of my car, or theirs, in a safe and controlled environment. "Holy sxxx, that stopped so quick!" It annoys to me to no-end, and scares me immensely knowing that the majority of people don't know the capabilites of their own car, let alone the other cars around them with regards to avoiding, or leading to an accident.

The issue of speeding is another one I get frustrated by. It is touted as a "killer" by so many people it's getting rediculous. I have read somewhere, and I would really love to be corrected given the massive anti-speeding campaign, that speed is a SOLE contributor to an accident in VERY FEW accidents. It's usually combined with drink driving, drowsiness, or vast inexperience. I know for a fact, that I'd much rather be in a car driven by a driver who knows what their doing at 160km/h on a wide open public road with no traffic, than someone who tailgates, and has no idea how to control their vehicle at 103km/h because they drive at 40-60km/h 99% of the time, and use the same distances between cars at the higher speed as they do for around town driving...

I have written enough for now, but I'll resume possibly after i have a break and clear my thoughts.

Jared

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by oneredED

I am 100% for driver training to be forced upon all drivers on the roads today.

Day in, day out, i see people who sit less than 5 metres behind other cars at 110km/h, in very congested traffic. It amazes me that people can drive like this, and assume "I'll be fine, as long as no-one in this massive line of bumper-to-bumper traffic hits the brakes..." I find this to be particularly exhibited by CITY drivers. I have yet to meet a driver from the what i consider to be the country ("out in the sticks" LOL) who drives this way, as the unexpected is far more "obvious" in the country, and frequent in the form of kangaroos, birds, farm machinery etc, that break up the monotony which can lead to complacency from drivers in the cities who see everyone else driving so close on a regular basis.

My point about tail-gating is shockingly contrasted by taking passengers for a ride in my car (most of which are guilty of this) and showing them the braking ability of my car, or theirs, in a safe and controlled environment. "Holy sxxx, that stopped so quick!" It annoys to me to no-end, and scares me immensely knowing that the majority of people don't know the capabilites of their own car, let alone the other cars around them with regards to avoiding, or leading to an accident.

The issue of speeding is another one I get frustrated by. It is touted as a "killer" by so many people it's getting rediculous. I have read somewhere, and I would really love to be corrected given the massive anti-speeding campaign, that speed is a SOLE contributor to an accident in VERY FEW accidents. It's usually combined with drink driving, drowsiness, or vast inexperience. I know for a fact, that I'd much rather be in a car driven by a driver who knows what their doing at 160km/h on a wide open public road with no traffic, than someone who tailgates, and has no idea how to control their vehicle at 103km/h because they drive at 40-60km/h 99% of the time, and use the same distances between cars at the higher speed as they do for around town driving...

I have written enough for now, but I'll resume possibly after i have a break and clear my thoughts.

Jared

Absolutely. This is the post of the topic.

[troppo]

At the risk of rambling, I'm going to finally post here..

Originally Posted by oneredED

The issue of speeding is another one I get frustrated by. It is touted as a "killer" by so many people it's getting rediculous. I have read somewhere, and I would really love to be corrected given the massive anti-speeding campaign, that speed is a SOLE contributor to an accident in VERY FEW accidents. It's usually combined with drink driving, drowsiness, or vast inexperience.

Couldn't agree more. In fact I'd even go one further and say speed is NEVER the sole contributor to an accident. It clearly IS a factor in the severity of an accident, should somehow a loss of control and crash occur, but it is never the cause of loss of control. An error in driver judgement is almost always the cause, the exception being unforseen mechanical failure. Everything else, and I mean everything, comes down to a failure of the driver to weigh up 3 things at every given moment whilst behind the wheel. Safe driving is about your ability to drive within the limits of
1 Your driving skill
2 The condition, capability and handling characteristics of whatever vehicle you happen to be driving
3 The prevailing driving conditions

Poor ability to weigh up and judge the limits of these three factors is the cause of pretty much all accidents. Speed is simply a factor in the result.

I first read this thread on Sunday after watching speedweek. It occurred to me, that one of the professional race drivers crashed in a manner very similar to what nastyfalcon described earlier. Both drivers at high speed down a straight, braked too late, locked up and shot through the corner with a crash speed @ 100km/h. There were however, two very stark differences. Firstly, not once did anyone at the racetrack attempt to blame excessive speed as the cause of the crash. From the commentators to the crew to the driver himself, all agreed it was the drivers error, specifically he overshot his braking mark by a long way on a last lap charge. The driver blew it all by himself, no ifs, buts or maybes. He braked too late which caused him to "carry too much speed into the corner". That in turn caused him to react by braking harder, resulting in the lock -up blah blah.... The second difference was the race driver walked away. Simple common sense dictates that people who are actively pushing the limits of all 3 factors mentioned above are significantly more likely to crash, so racing officials adopted a "well lets make it safe to crash' policy. Hence, roll cages, harnesses and helmets, gravel traps, tyre walls and so on. Yet in the fatal crash naughtyfalcon mentioned (and others like it) people seem very eager to blame speed as the culprit rather than the cause of the speed. I'm guessing it's because emotion surrounding fatal crashes plays a significant part, no-one wants say, well it was his own fault that he crashed, especially friends and loved ones. Mostly, they really want someone or something else to blame, and speed doesn't defend itself. The complete lack of any emotion allowed the racecaller to make a more 'clinical' analysis of the cause of the crash rather than being clouded by emotion.
Which is why driver education and training is the answer, not ever decreasing speed limits, or speed governors or revenue cameras.

Got lots more to say on this subject but I'll leave it at that for now

[Keepleft]

mmm, Speed Cameras DO save lives, see:-)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFr...4085-2,00.html