Sandy Munro calls out EV Makers and automakers in geneal

[jpd80]

I wanted to share this video because I found the content to be interesting beyond just EV automakers.

Sandy Munro is an ex Ford guy from way back who has been at the forefront of review of new products and assisting OEMs with solutions that improve design while saving money and parts count. When you get an idea of how corporates really behave away from the spotlight, it’s easy to see why innovations take so long or never come to market.

Sandy’s insight to current problems with corporates that make stupid decisions and that are locked to their own company or industry standards is insightful.

I’m wondering if criticism of the lack of vertical integration by major corporations misunderstands that until recently, the production volume of electric vehicles was too small to justify a change but now Tesla and BYD have shown that it’s essential to have all those resources and supplies integrated inside the manufacturer. And what does that mean for companies like VW, Toyota, Ford and GM who are now finding that switching to building BEVs is a nightmare with supply issues.

[Franco Cozzo]

Classic bean counter logic - prevalent all throughout automotive from the OEM through to the aftermarket distribution/replacement side.

Feels like the automotive OEM's peaked in the 1960s when they were willing to invest in technology and engineering costs, then its been spinning its wheels since.

Something that ****s me with this clip is the guy waffling on filling in the video prior to the Sandy Munro chat, filler to get it past 10 minutes for that youtube ad revenue

If you want to see a good example of vertical integration, look into Pablo Escobar, he owned everything from the cocoa leaf plantations to the manufacture, transport and distribution of his cocaine empire, single product in one major market, $30B.

Sandy also mentions a lot about how slow OEM are to react to change due to the nature of huge corporations.

I imagine there's plenty of very bright and talented engineers working for the OEM's who are capable of designing the next best thing or sitting on something that just won't be supported by management, be great to get these guys sitting in a room with no restrictions and see what they come out with.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

If you want to see a good example of vertical integration, look into Pablo Escobar, he owned everything from the cocoa leaf plantations to the manufacture, transport and distribution of his cocaine empire, single product in one major market, $30B.

Even had his own airports, the Interstate hwy system.

[Crazy Dazz]

Meh, what is even the point of comparing a boutique specialist like Tesla, to a global giant like Toyota.
It’s like pointing out that my boat is more manoeuvrable than a Panamax. Big Whoop.

The problem that automakers face now, is having to navigate the everchanging oceans of bull****.
They're faced with the need to develop and sell increasingly nonsensical cars, based on whatever tomorrow's political or social whimsy happens to be.

Hi criticism of Toyota was particularly hilarious.

Last night, somebody won $20M on Powerball. Do you think they were a genius?
Or was their strategy the same as the millions who didn't win?
I could sit and tell with absolute 100% certainty what numbers you needed to win last night. It's very easy to be an expert in hindsight.

Telsa are hailed as geniuses because they backed Battery technology (despite the fact that the world simply doesn't have the resources for widespread battery deployment.)
Yet they've succeeded only because politicians, hypocrites, and the generally gormless, have picked battery-power as this season's fashion-accessory.
We just conveniently ignore all those that have died in the **** because they chose to back the other technologies.

Those of us with age and brain-cells will remember when Hydro-Power was going to destroy the planet, and Nuclear was literally the spawn of satan.
20 years ago every man and his dog was fitting diesels to passenger cars, then it was hybrids that were going to save us, then Hydrogen Fuel-Cells became "the way of the future", now it's Tesla's batteries, but what's it going to be next season??

As for Vertical Integration, FMD, does he even know what century this is?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Meh, what is even the point of comparing a boutique specialist like Tesla, to a global giant like Toyota.
It’s like pointing out that my boat is more manoeuvrable than a Panamax. Big Whoop.

The problem that automakers face now, is having to navigate the everchanging oceans of bull****.
They're faced with the need to develop and sell increasingly nonsensical cars, based on whatever tomorrow's political or social whimsy happens to be.

Hi criticism of Toyota was particularly hilarious.

The criticism of Toyota as based on the stupidity of fuel cells, they don’t work in cars, something Toyota was forced to admit.
Funny enough in another video, Munro talks about Toyota having a hundred year plan, they’re so forward looking they have a ton of strategies to take their vehicles to whatever is needed, so there’s that.

Last night, somebody won $20M on Powerball. Do you think they were a genius?
Or was their strategy the same as the millions who didn't win?
I could sit and tell with absolute 100% certainty what numbers you needed to win last night. It's very easy to be an expert in hindsight.

That’s a false equivalence with the toymaker story and would only be true if he had done nothing and was just given his money. What actually happened is that he built his company from nothing with virtually zero support to get started and built up everything himself…………….I guess to some that’s like winning the lotto…every year over and over.

Telsa are hailed as geniuses because they backed Battery technology (despite the fact that the world simply doesn't have the resources for widespread battery deployment.)
Yet they've succeeded only because politicians, hypocrites, and the generally gormless, have picked battery-power as this season's fashion-accessory.

it’s been a long haul for Tesla, selling low volume high priced EVs for ages while Toyota was selling hybrids for decades but never really breaking out and taking over the industry.

We just conveniently ignore all those that have died in the **** because they chose to back the other technologies.

Of course many ideas don’t pan out, the important part is picking something with a good chance of succeeding and then persisting

Those of us with age and brain-cells will remember when Hydro-Power was going to destroy the planet, and Nuclear was literally the spawn of satan.
20 years ago every man and his dog was fitting diesels to passenger cars, then it was hybrids that were going to save us, then Hydrogen Fuel-Cells became "the way of the future", now it's Tesla's batteries, but what's it going to be next season??

As a society, we evolve and grow and learn new stuff…..we’ll some of us anyway. It’s not the 1990s anymore and many people now recognise that the actions we take today affect tomorrow.
If you’re as old as you say, you’ll remember the hole in the ozone layer and how CFCs were banned globally, yeah people moaned about changing R12 gas but they still did it and now the thing is fixed.
All it takes is for enough people to do the right thing, be adult for all the mung heads who don’t get it and everything will be OK. That doesn’t mean dissenters are wrong, it’s just that some changes cause unnecessary pain to people that wouldn’t be affected. We’ve all had a gut full of that recently but that’s another can of worms, thank god were passed now….

As for Vertical Integration, FMD, does he even know what century this is?

When Henry Ford started out, he used vertical integration because he was spearheading an industry, there was nothing to speak in terms of ready made suppliers, they had to make everything themselves.

What Tesla is doing is not the same thing, those battery makers existed before and in truth it’s not vertical integration, it’s cornering the market on battery supply before anyone else wisens up to the need to secure long term supplies. Big automakers are that dumb they thought their political clout would end EV but then greenie Bill Ford loves the things, he even fired a CEO for not moving fast enough with electrification.

I don’t know about Tesla, musk thinks he can conquer the world with two or three vehicles….I don’t see that being sustainable in the long nrun, how long before BYD or someone else like this, Toyota are subcontracting their EV Corolla to BYD to make with a better looking top hat (compared to BYD) and VW building a huge plant in China with partners to export ID3 both of those are coming in the near future and things should heat up…..

Seriously, the BEV war will be run and won overseas and we in Australia will look on with interest but I doubt anyones world will be massively changed.

But the Aussie blokes doing B double BEV repowers with battery changes through the nose of the truck with a forklift, man that bloody genius.

[Top_Ghia]

Has anyone seen the investment Ford is putting into EV?
They are building two massive factories in the US. Gigafactory style. They’re investing $30B and will be making their own batteries. These factories will also be far more responsive than the current factories. They want to be able to react to changes in the market very quickly.
They’ll be in Kentucky and Tennessee. One will build BEV and the other will make batteries. They should be operational by 2025 and be carbon neutral and send nothing to landfill once in operation.
It’s the biggest investment in bev production by any car company. This will make bev more affordable and truly bring it to the masses.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Has anyone seen the investment Ford is putting into EV?
They are building two massive factories in the US. Gigafactory style. They’re investing $30B and will be making their own batteries. These factories will also be far more responsive than the current factories. They want to be able to react to changes in the market very quickly.
They’ll be in Kentucky and Tennessee. One will build BEV and the other will make batteries. They should be operational by 2025 and be carbon neutral and send nothing to landfill once in operation.
It’s the biggest investment in bev production by any car company. This will make bev more affordable and truly bring it to the masses.

The investment is now up to $50 billion
The next big plant after Blue Oval City is Oakville in Canada, it was originally slated to build VW based BEVs
but I have a sneaking suspicion that the GE2 mid-sized SUVs will go there as will the next Gen Mustang Mach E.
From there, I suspect that the VW based EV might go to cost efficient Mexico to keep them profitable.

Meanwhile, Cologne plant refit is well advanced, the first two vehicles produced should be Escape and “Focus Active”
Ford is also working on a BEV Puma and there’s also BEV Transits in production now.

All of that is fine but if we never see these vehicles in Australia because the US or Europe can’t make enough,
well that will be a huge tragedy and an opportunity missed. It’s up to Ford to make this happen.

[Top_Ghia]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The investment is now up to $50 billion
The next big plant after Blue Oval City is Oakville in Canada, it was originally slated to build VW based BEVs
but I have a sneaking suspicion that the GE2 mid-sized SUVs will go there as will the next Gen Mustang Mach E.
From there, I suspect that the VW based EV might go to cost efficient Mexico to keep them profitable.

Meanwhile, Cologne plant refit is well advanced, the first two vehicles produced should be Escape and “Focus Active”
Ford is also working on a BEV Puma and there’s also BEV Transits in production now.

All of that is fine but if we never see these vehicles in Australia because the US or Europe can’t make enough,
well that will be a huge tragedy and an opportunity missed. It’s up to Ford to make this happen.

Have faith. Ford is targeting 5 bev models in Australia by 2025. One will be a Ute (Ranger or F150)and that will include Transit e. I would assume Mustang Mach e would be one of them so that leaves 2 other models.
Puma and escape variants possibly?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Have faith. Ford is targeting 5 bev models in Australia by 2025. One will be a Ute (Ranger or F150)and that will include Transit e. I would assume Mustang Mach e would be one of them so that leaves 2 other models.
Puma and escape variants possibly?

Sounds good.
My biggest hope is that the battery and electrical systems used to create the present F150 Lightning are grandfathered to T6 when Lightning switches to TE1/skateboard. I think that would be totally justified for Ranger/Everest markets and maybe Bronco too….

Like every other carmaker, Ford can’t seem to make enough vehicles for todays market, I don’t know how they get from todays situation to the far off success of the coming years….

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

They should be operational by 2025 and be carbon neutral

This statement by companies always makes me laugh but good on them for having a go.

[jpd80]

Bit of a tour around Tesla Austin gigafactory, I noticed that the Teslas are assembled in a slightly different order to Ford and GM, seats and interior backed onto lower frame early and then married to body shell where Ford and GM put seats, trim and instrument panel in through door holes.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Have faith. Ford is targeting 5 bev models in Australia by 2025. One will be a Ute (Ranger or F150)and that will include Transit e. I would assume Mustang Mach e would be one of them so that leaves 2 other models.
Puma and escape variants possibly?

I would say it will be 2 of the vehicles that Ford of Europe showed as silhouettes recently.



Probably 2 of either the medium size crossover (possibly an Escape), Puma BEV or Sport Cross-over.

Not sure what the deal is having both Mach E and Sport Cross over. Seems a duplication.

[Crazy Dazz]

Ultimately these mega corporations exist to make money. They will do their best to navigate the market that is presented to them, contingent also on their own ability to spin and market. And keep in mind that the market can be shaped by laws, government policies, commodity prices, and consumer trends.
But I am always surprised and amused by some peoples willingness to lap up every announcement, just because it suits their own personal view. I mean seriously when was the last time a Car Manufacturer told the truth about anything? They are the Grand Masters of telling people what they want to hear. I'd suggest they're actually more refined at tit, than politicians.
End of the day, go down to your local Ford Dealer, see what they've got for sale, and compare that (objectively) to what is for sale down the road. That is the only reality you can depend on.

As I said in another thread, if Each-Way Albo fulfils his promise (which he probably won't) then (as soon as manufacturers respond) I'll be signing up for my tax-free PHEV. (Assuming that in the meantime prices come down to less insane levels)
But I'm not getting excited about it, until it actually happens.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Bit of a tour around Tesla Austin gigafactory, I noticed that the Teslas are assembled in a slightly different order to Ford and GM, seats and interior backed onto lower frame early and then married to body shell where Ford and GM put seats, trim and instrument panel in through door holes.

I was watching a truckin clip on youtube the other day where the driver said it takes 10 minutes to pass this mega factory on the interstate. Geeze its big.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I was watching a truckin clip on youtube the other day where the driver said it takes 10 minutes to pass this mega factory on the interstate. Geeze its big.

Looking at aerial views of these things, they’re massive and no doubt, intended to produce simply huge volumes of vehicles. It always amazes me how they arrange freight for all those vehicles but it looks like Tesla woon the using big holding yards or needing to ship by rail. So maybe they have a crap ton of semi car transporters …..imagine that contract delivering Teslas.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Ultimately these mega corporations exist to make money. They will do their best to navigate the market that is presented to them, contingent also on their own ability to spin and market. And keep in mind that the market can be shaped by laws, government policies, commodity prices, and consumer trends.
But I am always surprised and amused by some peoples willingness to lap up every announcement, just because it suits their own personal view. I mean seriously when was the last time a Car Manufacturer told the truth about anything? They are the Grand Masters of telling people what they want to hear. I'd suggest they're actually more refined at tit, than politicians.
End of the day, go down to your local Ford Dealer, see what they've got for sale, and compare that (objectively) to what is for sale down the road. That is the only reality you can depend on.

As I said in another thread, if Each-Way Albo fulfils his promise (which he probably won't) then (as soon as manufacturers respond) I'll be signing up for my tax-free PHEV. (Assuming that in the meantime prices come down to less insane levels)
But I'm not getting excited about it, until it actually happens.

Excuse me for asking but do you already have a work vehicle as part of your salary package?
If so, the FBT free status of EVs under the opposition’s proposal will be helpful
as it opens up the field of vehicles from just 4x4 Utes and vans and what not.
Heck, even a hybrid RAV4 would probably qualify………

Whatever happens, I suspect it won’t be open slather for everyone who wants an EV, government promises normally come with fine print that often illogically confounds.