Injected LPG for ford within a year!

[flappist]

Such emotion and passion. I have not read anything like this since the last V8 vs T6 or T3 vs BA GT war.

Just a few minor points.

There are many stretches on the main highways that are far more than 200km between anything let alone towns so the 200km idea is a bit wrong. The concept that you live in the suburbs and only travel to regional areas on the main highway is not true for many Australians. I suspect may be a bit of a pain if the nearest LPG is over 100km away when you need to fill up every week.

The pollution replies had me checking if I had accidentally logged into the Prius forum by mistake. Bob Brown will be so proud of you. Why don't you take the train or ride a pushbike?

Some of the savings calculations were a little bit interesting, 17 years ago petrol was half the price it was now so the savings would have been half what you are saving now. You cant just multiply last year by 17.

Almost every member who is very passionate about LPG appears to live in a major city and is driving a converted second hand car that are mostly dual fuel on a commuter basis.

So it comes back to "saving money" which on a forum that features so many who will happily spend $4000 on a set of wheels or $10,000 of engine modifications or $50,000 restoring a 40 year old sedan, LPG is just ONE feature that may or may not suit a particular situation, not the holy grail, messiah and nirvana all rolled into one automotive orgasm.

The reality is that if LPG were THE answer then all around the world LPG powered vehicles would be commonplace.
There are many Diesels, E85s, Hybrids, Electrics and even Hydrogen powered vehicles but outside Australia LPG is almost as rare as rocking horse poo.
Countries like Japan, Korea and even USA, all of which have huge motor vehicle manufacturers in addition to pollution problems and fuel shortages don't seem to have jumped on the LPG bandwagon.

To me LPG is just a fuel. like diesel or petrol and if I were in a situation where it would be useful to me I would concider it but at this time the cons outweigh the pros. I don't live in Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane.
It was less than 5 years ago that I had to plan many trips in advance and carry a 20l jerrycan in the boot of my GT-P (which I used several times) due to the rarity of premium unleaded let alone 98 and the BA GT-P did NOT run on 91.

Right now I run 98 almost exclusively, not 95, ULP or e10 with shopper dockets. It costs more but for me works better. If I wanted to save money on fuel I would buy a diesel hyundai.

[Mr Hardware]

Maybe his 17 year figures were largely inflation-adjusted figures. Yes petrol has moved with inflation, albeit extremely roughly.
And flappist,
Here's the LPG finder for you
although maybe at your age, this might be a more useful finder

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Maybe his 17 year figures were largely inflation-adjusted figures. Yes petrol has moved with inflation, albeit extremely roughly.
And flappist,
Here's the LPG finder for you
although maybe at your age, this might be a more useful finder

Well after using your LPG finder I have confirmed that LPG is not available in many of the places I travel to and through. Maybe you should have checked it before making your 200km statement earlier.

As far as the childish personal attack about my age, most of the admins on AFF are about my age or older so you might want to be a bit careful in the future or your username and/or smilies could end up red....

[xy500]

never had a problem finding lpg stations in country SW WA.
And i can't afford 4 grand wheels or anything of the like, or even a getz if i was that way inclined :ymca:
i bought a cheap (2 grand) old falcon on lpg, it costs a little more than half to run on lpg than petrol. And thats important if your not as rich as flappist, cos i need the money to buy food!
No need to get revved up about the age joke flappist, is not our fault you act like an old man!

[Mr Hardware]

Woah, hold on there mate, i was joking.

[EDManual]

I really dont understand why the Govt and business buy any petrol falcons? The gas ones are cheaper to run, and are worth more when you sell...

My boss is the same, dont get it... buys all sorts of cars with bad resale expensive to run etc, and dismisses gas...

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by flappist

Such emotion and passion. I have not read anything like this since the last V8 vs T6 or T3 vs BA GT war.

Just a few minor points.

There are many stretches on the main highways that are far more than 200km between anything let alone towns so the 200km idea is a bit wrong. The concept that you live in the suburbs and only travel to regional areas on the main highway is not true for many Australians. I suspect may be a bit of a pain if the nearest LPG is over 100km away when you need to fill up every week.

The pollution replies had me checking if I had accidentally logged into the Prius forum by mistake. Bob Brown will be so proud of you. Why don't you take the train or ride a pushbike?

Some of the savings calculations were a little bit interesting, 17 years ago petrol was half the price it was now so the savings would have been half what you are saving now. You cant just multiply last year by 17.

Almost every member who is very passionate about LPG appears to live in a major city and is driving a converted second hand car that are mostly dual fuel on a commuter basis.

So it comes back to "saving money" which on a forum that features so many who will happily spend $4000 on a set of wheels or $10,000 of engine modifications or $50,000 restoring a 40 year old sedan, LPG is just ONE feature that may or may not suit a particular situation, not the holy grail, messiah and nirvana all rolled into one automotive orgasm.

The reality is that if LPG were THE answer then all around the world LPG powered vehicles would be commonplace.
There are many Diesels, E85s, Hybrids, Electrics and even Hydrogen powered vehicles but outside Australia LPG is almost as rare as rocking horse poo.
Countries like Japan, Korea and even USA, all of which have huge motor vehicle manufacturers in addition to pollution problems and fuel shortages don't seem to have jumped on the LPG bandwagon.

To me LPG is just a fuel. like diesel or petrol and if I were in a situation where it would be useful to me I would concider it but at this time the cons outweigh the pros. I don't live in Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane.
It was less than 5 years ago that I had to plan many trips in advance and carry a 20l jerrycan in the boot of my GT-P (which I used several times) due to the rarity of premium unleaded let alone 98 and the BA GT-P did NOT run on 91.

Right now I run 98 almost exclusively, not 95, ULP or e10 with shopper dockets. It costs more but for me works better. If I wanted to save money on fuel I would buy a diesel hyundai.

Ok, so it doesn't work for you, but it works for some of us. Can we all please just leave it at that and not have the thread possibly closed?

Anyway it will be of benefit to those who already buy Egas cars, and hopefully will sway those who otherwise buy a smaller, more fuel efficient car to the Ford brand. It could also win some brownie points with greenies, being less polluting and all, and hopefully might allow more fleet sales to those who have their hands tied with regulation on emissions.

For those who do live in the capital cities (around 63% of the population. You could also add other large cities like Newcastle, Wollongong, etc), it could be a viable alternative to a hyundai as far as fuel costs go.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by xy500

No need to get revved up about the age joke flappist, is not our fault you act like an old man!

Hey back off

[deesun]

I wasn't the one who originally bagged out a product and made sweeping generalisations. Our passion comes from people who do just that. We get it often and in many instances have to correct so many falicies such as the ones you portray.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by xy500

never had a problem finding lpg stations in country SW WA.
And i can't afford 4 grand wheels or anything of the like, or even a getz if i was that way inclined :ymca:
i bought a cheap (2 grand) old falcon on lpg, it costs a little more than half to run on lpg than petrol. And thats important if your not as rich as flappist, cos i need the money to buy food!
No need to get revved up about the age joke flappist, is not our fault you act like an old man!

So then you are using LPG purely as an operating cost saving measure.

If LPG was about the same price as petrol would you still use it?
If it became dearer would you still use it for all the "other" reasons given above?

LPG will always be cheaper? If ALL cars were LPG then ALL of the tax and excise would come from LPG.
Do you think they would just reduce their income?
Do you think there is enough LPG in Australia to run ALL cars?
The more LPG users there are the more expensive LPG will become.

I grew up in country service station. Diesel was once half the price of petrol. Two years ago it was at least 30% more than PULP, now it is just slightly more than ULP and less than PULP.

The Toorak Tractor 4WD market is full of diesels. Ya gotta be a diesel mate....(with DVD player so you can watch movies of the desert and mountains while sitting in the golf club car park).
A couple of years ago Toyota were flogging their V8 petrol cruiser with a $17,000 factory discount. Together with the then $4000 difference in price to the diesel it work out that at an average 20,000km/year you would not need to pay for fuel for about 5 years and it would be 12 years before you caught up. That is 240,000km.
So how many petrol cruisers did they sell. Bugger all.
Why? Coz ya gotta be a diesel mate...resale...coz ya gotta be a diesel mate.
They are cheaper to run, more reliable, less polution...(where have I heard this before)

So to get back to the LPG idea. Yes it is good for part of the market but is not good for all or even most of it.

Why do the government and fleet buyers still mostly buy petrol instead of LPG or diesel (and PULP)?

Probably because it is a lot cheaper and easier to have one technology and to not have to worry about sending 3 new LPG station wagons for the department of silly walks to Birdsville only to find the nearest fuel is 500km away.

Government money is free .

If they had any sense all of their "company" cars would be diesel hyundais with 5 year unlimited warranties and replaced only every 5 years but that will never happen, after all it is free money and public vegetables just LOVE shiny new toys to play with.

[Mr Hardware]

Public Servant here
i drive a govt triton diseasel
it does 12.5L/100klms on mixed driving
diseasel economy is the biggest joke known to man
the sums don't add up for diseasel, they do for LPG.

[vztrt]

lol, Flapist stop poking the LPG fanboys, while amusing it like the Boss v I6T debates it goes no where and people don't change their minds.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Public Servant here
i drive a govt triton diseasel
it does 12.5L/100klms on mixed driving
diseasel economy is the biggest joke known to man
the sums don't add up for diseasel, they do for LPG.

Hang on...... all the diesel zealots swear black and blue that diesel is the second coming........petrol and LPG are crap, diesel is the way the truth and the light.........they have driven from Perth to Sydney on half a stubby of diesel.......diesel makes the sun come up in the morning and diesel will cure swine flu and diesel wil fix climate change .......how could they possibly be so deluded.....

[vanman_75]

just did the distance check 147 km for me and also no 98 in town either ,great for a small market as already posted ,but all the lease cars bma have will be staying petrol ,so no benefit for a major player .with the economy of these new diesels i doubt this will ever get big enough for it to prop up a business, money would be better spent on other fuels/ technologies i believe.

[vanman_75]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hang on...... all the diesel zealots swear black and blue that diesel is the second coming........petrol and LPG are crap, diesel is the way the truth and the light.........they have driven from Perth to Sydney on half a stubby of diesel.......diesel makes the sun come up in the morning and diesel will cure swine flu and diesel wil fix climate change .......how could they possibly be so deluded.....

a friend came around this morning in his pajero towing his new boat 200 k from town with a fuel use of 10.5 ,he only mentioned it cause he towed his little old boat in and got 10.2 find me petrols that can do that in a large 4wd

I agree with old mate that some diesels are over rated and thirsty but the good 1s will do 7/8/9 litres to the hundred so no savings there ,this is purely a commuter fuel i believe ,gas that is

[ltd]

Flappist has a point here, wasn't it all the diesel this and diesel that guys that bagged Ford for not doing it in the territory 4 years ago?
As for LPG conversions; never.
Factory LPG, maybe.

LPG when burning is quite dry and does not lubricate some parts of the head like petrol does, it also tends to cause a higher head temperature in vehicles not designed with this in mind. How many mitsubishis or toyotas have you guys seen with blue smoke and an LPG sticker? Probably the reason for that flashlube garbage.\

Also, LPG changes the composition of oil and many an LPG converted engine have shown pitting and corrosion on the bearings.
Nope, 98 premium only for my G6

[worm]

My XR6T with 350rwkw was getting more power on LPG and using exactly the same amount per litre as petrol!!! (13L/100)

This was with Liquid Gas Injection... And it was better to drive!

Only downside was the small tank... 45 useable litres, but was good for 330-50 km around town.. And only $17 to fill up! LOL

LPG all the way!

[phillyc]

I thought this thread was about Ford releasing a Liquid Injection Falcon next year...

[Jastel]

Anyone know if it will be a dual fuel or LPG only?

Knowing Ford I guess LPG only

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Jastel

Anyone know if it will be a dual fuel or LPG only?

Knowing Ford I guess LPG only

Sounds like straight gas, but a chance of factory backed conversions as well?

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hang on...... all the diesel zealots swear black and blue that diesel is the second coming........petrol and LPG are crap, diesel is the way the truth and the light.........they have driven from Perth to Sydney on half a stubby of diesel.......diesel makes the sun come up in the morning and diesel will cure swine flu and diesel wil fix climate change .......how could they possibly be so deluded.....

Dead set classic post

[gtfpv]

FLAPPIST . alittle of my experianced info on LPG . ON MY CALCULATIONS i have lpg experiance on ford vehicles from 1977 to 1997.
i will state some for and against for this reason . mostly for earlier models the positive benifits drop off on later model vehicles .
you may notice over my 17 years if you do the calcs . over the last 6 years i have saved $20000 . over the previous 11 years i have saved around 30k or maybe 2 to 5k less . that has allowed for inflation. lpg is always around 40 -45% or petrol price .
you may notice that i used a economy discount of 10% not 19%
that is because later models are much more economic on petrol then pre 2000 models .
not only are they more economic but more powerful too for the same 4 litre engine .
so the power decreases and economy differances are closer on petrol /lpg then they once were .

i'll use an example . in todays economy . ( leasing a ford G6 ) ON LPG is only $10 PW cheaper than petrol .
for that you lose 19% economy and about 22% power .
on these finding you have valid points indeed .
however when / if liquid injection gas IS RELEASED , bringing economy /power ratio differances back to pre 2000 levels , you MAY RECONSIDER YOUR OPINIONS .
unfortunately i think TAX AND premium purchse prices on new vehicles fitted lpg may outwiegh the benifits .

i9 am surprised that LPG has been overlooked as low pollution ,cheap, performance potential fuel. from a marketing point of view i understand it entirely though .
what government would invest in losing tax revenue and vastly lowering profits selling superior fuels .
thats why technology on petrol has way outstripped dinousour lpg technology.
i think lpg will be an alternative lower emmissioned fuel in the future . in which you may save through carbon credit boooolsshhit tax.
thats my take .

[xy500]

Originally Posted by ltd

Flappist has a point here, wasn't it all the diesel this and diesel that guys that bagged Ford for not doing it in the territory 4 years ago?
As for LPG conversions; never.
Factory LPG, maybe.

LPG when burning is quite dry and does not lubricate some parts of the head like petrol does, it also tends to cause a higher head temperature in vehicles not designed with this in mind. How many mitsubishis or toyotas have you guys seen with blue smoke and an LPG sticker? Probably the reason for that flashlube garbage.\

Also, LPG changes the composition of oil and many an LPG converted engine have shown pitting and corrosion on the bearings.
Nope, 98 premium only for my G6

lets not even begin discussing territory drivers, thats a whole different kettle of fish.
But did you put enough sweeping generalisations in there?
What you failed to mention about lpg is that it promotes longer ring and bore life as it doesn't wash the bores of oil like petrol. Due to this they also use less oil. the only 'parts of the head' it doesn't lubricate well are the valve seats. Which you'll find unleaded fuel doesn't do especially well either, hence most cars now have hardened seats so this isnt really an issue. Higher combustion chamber temperatures are caused by lpg, but its not a massive increase, a suitable cooling system and alloy heads deal with the temp easily.
Flashlube again is another topic to be discussed on its own, personally i see no point for the stuff, let your valve seats wear out then replace them with hardened parts and never worry about it again.
Lpg can affect your oil, but not if you change it according to suitable intervals, and even if you don't like doing this, buy some 'lpg' engine oil and it contains additives to neutralise corrosive contaminants in the oil

And as someone else already stated, 98 premium can be harder to come across in the country than lpg.
My point here is, you are wrong, flappist does not have a point
hey Walt Kowalski, can't take a joke either?

no one said lpg is the supreme fuel, its just a worthy alternative to petrol, and its cheap, and flappist i will stop using lpg if it becomes more expensive than petrol. Because lpg laws are the biggest pain in the bum, you can't touch anything on the system, but apparently petrol is completely safe and anyone can fiddle with their fuel system. Tell this to the mechanic who 'fixed' my carby leak, only for me to find the engine soaked in fuel more than ready to go boom.

[Daymoe]

On a side note, I like how everyone promotes diesel as the best fuel efficient cars, but when you take into account the price difference between the diesel and petrol versions of the same car, and the average Ks traveled a year, the price difference doesn't add up as a saving.

[Brute6]

This new gas injection will be available when the update comes around July next year, along with all the new EURO IV updates.

[eb2fairmont]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

On a side note, I like how everyone promotes diesel as the best fuel efficient cars, but when you take into account the price difference between the diesel and petrol versions of the same car, and the average Ks traveled a year, the price difference doesn't add up as a saving.

Could argue the same about Lpg if there were no rebates and it was taxed. Only really high mileages would see a difference - or fleets.

But you win with LPG or diesel when someone else takes the initial hit of depreciation, and you buy second hand.

Which is what I did. Currently have a diesel golf (6l/100 around town) and an XF ute (on gas).

[flappist]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

FLAPPIST . alittle of my experianced info on LPG . ON MY CALCULATIONS i have lpg experiance on ford vehicles from 1977 to 1997.
i will state some for and against for this reason . mostly for earlier models the positive benifits drop off on later model vehicles .
you may notice over my 17 years if you do the calcs . over the last 6 years i have saved $20000 . over the previous 11 years i have saved around 30k or maybe 2 to 5k less . that has allowed for inflation. lpg is always around 40 -45% or petrol price .
you may notice that i used a economy discount of 10% not 19%
that is because later models are much more economic on petrol then pre 2000 models .
not only are they more economic but more powerful too for the same 4 litre engine .
so the power decreases and economy differances are closer on petrol /lpg then they once were .

i'll use an example . in todays economy . ( leasing a ford G6 ) ON LPG is only $10 PW cheaper than petrol .
for that you lose 19% economy and about 22% power .
on these finding you have valid points indeed .
however when / if liquid injection gas IS RELEASED , bringing economy /power ratio differances back to pre 2000 levels , you MAY RECONSIDER YOUR OPINIONS .
unfortunately i think TAX AND premium purchse prices on new vehicles fitted lpg may outwiegh the benifits .

i9 am surprised that LPG has been overlooked as low pollution ,cheap, performance potential fuel. from a marketing point of view i understand it entirely though .
what government would invest in losing tax revenue and vastly lowering profits selling superior fuels .
thats why technology on petrol has way outstripped dinousour lpg technology.
i think lpg will be an alternative lower emmissioned fuel in the future . in which you may save through carbon credit boooolsshhit tax.
thats my take .

So as I stated in the beginning, it is purely money saving due to the previous and current lack of taxes which may or may not continue in the future.

But if it WAS just about money then by driving 4 cylinder bubble cars to and from work you would have saved FAR more than $50,000 due to the lower cap ex, rego, insurance, maintenance, depreciation etc.

Well don't worry, you have already blown more than half of what you saved by purchasing your GT.

Now here is a question for you. Why have you not converted your GT to LPG?

[naddis01]

Flappist, mate, any chance you could leave it at that. This thread is getting a little off topic now. Pity as I beleive this is excellent news for Ford. Obviously there are people out there that wont really care and it wont suit, but I am sure there are many that will love it. Hopefully they can produce a system that has more power than the petrol equivalent, but I think they will be aiming to get the ecomony as close as possible to the petrol models and will therefore have a little less power than petrol.

[Mr Hardware]

i am very keen to learn the power and economy figures of the forthcoming Vialle LPI on the Falcons. And i am keen to see whether they open it up to the whole range, as by and large they should be making more power than their petrol counterparts. Imagine that, a 200kw XT doing $7/100klms. Bring it on!

[blownba]

I think you will find that the system reverts back to petrol at high RPM and high load, as it does with the HSV's.
They are the same system after all and I know that HSV swap it to petrol at high revs.
I think maybee the Vialle has problems with injector flow or something like that, or they are just being conservative and don't want issues with melted cats or the like.
And I think some of the motive for HSV doing this is so they don't let petrol look rediculous, cause I know that JTG liquid injection on the 6.2L makes petrol look pathetic right over the whole range.
A mountain more torque down low and up to 25RWKW more power than petrol.!!!!!
Every car I have liquified has more power than petrol in some way.