2 Cars Colliding at an amber light (car turning right into oncoming traffic)?

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by K93George

I was incredibly close, only a metre or so from hitting a car turning in front of me. The situation...

What do you guys think, running the amber because you can make it? Most of the time I stop but there are those random occasions where you miss judge the distance and think "hmm, could of stopped" or "could of made it".

Look, not to be a basher. But in my mind (and really the law) amber light means stop. Red simply means "do not proceed". An amber is as good as a red & everyone should treat it as such. I'm pretty sure that changing your habits to this wont impede your day much. maybe 2 mins at the most. Best way to look at it is reverse your thinking from "Can I make it" to "Can I stop in time".

Unless your boss is like Kevin Spacey.

Dont get me wrong, sometimes there times the light changes right at the wrong time where your either Just going to stop, or Just going to run the red. But that doesn't happen often.

Originally Posted by Ugg

If both drivers driving through red light then basic rules of the road apply...driver turning gives way to oncoming traffic.

Yes common sense is better than arguing the point later (even though he was breaking the law) having to deal with other driver, damage both ways, the tow truck, no car, & bill for both as well as the inconvenience of all the above & the looks of every other rubbernecker.

[BLU-220]

DO NOT TAKE CHANCES ON RED ARRROW OR AMBER THIS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE DO
[IMG][/IMG]

[BLU-220]

And i went on through 2 sets of green lights and over a railway crossing
and bang so my pride & joy was written off

[K93George]

Originally Posted by Conundrum

Look, not to be a basher. But in my mind (and really the law) amber light means stop. Red simply means "do not proceed". An amber is as good as a red & everyone should treat it as such. I'm pretty sure that changing your habits to this wont impede your day much. maybe 2 mins at the most. Best way to look at it is reverse your thinking from "Can I make it" to "Can I stop in time".

I agree completely! As I stated before, this close encounter has definitely changed my ways. I no longer make it through because I can but treat the amber more like a red light. I wouldn't run a red light, so now I won't run an amber light!

[Werd.]

I still refuse to believe you were at fault, the car went when you still had an orange..
Sure you could have avoided the accident by stopping, but what was preventing the idiot from going a few seconds earlier?

Clearly the other driver is the problem maker here, because he's unable to judge the closing speed and time to impact of the car he's turning directly in front of.

If there was a red light camera there, you wouldn't have been fined, so what's going on?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

It's not actually illegal to enter the intersection while green if you are waiting to turn, and its legal to complete the turn once through traffic had stopped (because of amber or red light)

Correct in QLD too.

The simple fact is it is illegal to proceed through an amber light when you could have stopped safely, therefore you are partly at fault.

Just as it is illegal to turn across traffic in that situation, he would also be partly at fault.

Fault in crashes is not always one sided, you can have more than one party at blame.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Werd.

I still refuse to believe you were at fault, the car went when you still had an orange..
Sure you could have avoided the accident by stopping, but what was preventing the idiot from going a few seconds earlier?

Clearly the other driver is the problem maker here, because he's unable to judge the closing speed and time to impact of the car he's turning directly in front of.

If there was a red light camera there, you wouldn't have been fined, so what's going on?

57 Stopping for a yellow traffic light or arrow
(1) A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a yellow
traffic light must stop:
(a) if there is a stop line at or near the traffic lights and the
driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line —
as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the stop
line; or
(b) if there is no stop line at or near the traffic lights and
the driver can stop safely before reaching the traffic
lights — as near as practicable to, but before reaching,
the nearest or only traffic lights; or
(c) if the traffic lights are at an intersection and the driver
cannot stop safely in accordance with paragraph (a) or
(b), but can stop safely before entering the intersection
— before entering the intersection;
and must not proceed past the stop line or nearest or only
traffic lights, or into the intersection (as the case may be),
until the traffic lights show a green or flashing yellow traffic
light or no traffic light.

He was at fault because he could have stopped and to proceed is against the law.

Simple really!

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

He was at fault because he could have stopped and to proceed is against the law.

Simple really!

I understand the law part, but most drivers make a judgement call when it comes to orange lights, what about trucks? they physically cannot stop for an orange, a lot of the time, they *should* slow down before the lights so they can, but that rarely happens.

Bet this guy wouldn't have dived out in front of a truck, either way, if I'm turning, and the light for them is orange, I make 100% sure that they are stopping before I leave, or I leave a big enough gap that even if they had a supercharged V8 they would still not be able to hit me if they accelerated.

I think the OP exasperated the issue, but it isn't exactly something that should happen if the other driver had his head screwed on.

Even if we choose to stop at oranges as soon as safely possible, it's still a sure bet that other people on the road are always going to be pushing the oranges, I see it every single day, people will accelerate beyond the speed limit and still not manage to beat the lights before the red.

Legally OP may have been partly at fault, but it should not have happened, the idiot who turned across moving traffic (even if they did run a red..) is still an idiot to put himself in that situation.

Never assume someone is going to turn because their indicator is on
never assume someone is going to stop
never assume someone can see you.

[geckoGT]

More

62 Giving way when turning at an intersection with
traffic lights
(1) A driver turning at an intersection with traffic lights must
give way to:
(a) any pedestrian at or near the intersection who is
crossing the road the driver is entering; and
(b) if the driver is turning left at a left turn on red after
stopping sign at the intersection:
(i) any vehicle approaching from the right, turning
right at the intersection into the road the driver
is entering or making a U–turn; and
(ii) any pedestrian at or near the intersection who is
on the road the driver is leaving; and
(c) if the driver is turning right — any oncoming vehicle
that is going straight ahead or turning left at the
intersection (except a vehicle turning left using a slip
lane).

So yes he offended by not giving way.

In terms of is he allowed to enter the intersection under a green, wait for a gap in traffic and complete the turn, of course he is unless he has a red arrow in his direction of travel. Can he complete that turn after the amber? If he is already in the intersection he can as he must clear the intersection as soon as it is safe to do so.

If other motorists do the right thing and stop on a yellow when it is safe to do so, he will have adequate time. The intersections are timed that way in their sequencing, it is just motorists that treat amber as "race to get through" that stuff the system up.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Werd.

I understand the law part, but most drivers make a judgement call when it comes to orange lights, what about trucks? they physically cannot stop for an orange, a lot of the time, they *should* slow down before the lights so they can, but that rarely happens.

Bet this guy wouldn't have dived out in front of a truck, either way, if I'm turning, and the light for them is orange, I make 100% sure that they are stopping before I leave, or I leave a big enough gap that even if they had a supercharged V8 they would still not be able to hit me if they accelerated.

I think the OP exasperated the issue, but it isn't exactly something that should happen if the other driver had his head screwed on.

Even if we choose to stop at oranges as soon as safely possible, it's still a sure bet that other people on the road are always going to be pushing the oranges, I see it every single day, people will accelerate beyond the speed limit and still not manage to beat the lights before the red.

Legally OP may have been partly at fault, but it should not have happened, the idiot who turned across moving traffic (even if they did run a red..) is still an idiot to put himself in that situation.

Never assume someone is going to turn because their indicator is on
never assume someone is going to stop
never assume someone can see you.

That is precisely why I said they were both at fault. One because he failed to stop at a amber light when he could have safely done so (by his own admission) and the other because he failed to give way.

[Werd.]

Yes, probably, I don't run oranges unnecessarily, but I would like to still feel safe inside the intersection, at least until my light is actually red.

[tweeked]

People running ambers when they have plenty of time to stop is one of my pet hates, especially when you are waiting to turn right, and want to clear the intersection before the traffic to the left gets their green.

Amber is "you must stop unless it is not safe to do so", so in the instance above both would be at fault, the other car probably moreso, however I am sorry but your car is the one effectively "pushing in" and making it hard for them to complete their turn safely. They probably thought you were going to stop as you should have, just as you "thought it was amber for a long time"

[K93George]

Originally Posted by tweeked

People running ambers when they have plenty of time to stop is one of my pet hates, especially when you are waiting to turn right, and want to clear the intersection before the traffic to the left gets their green.

Amber is "you must stop unless it is not safe to do so", so in the instance above both would be at fault, the other car probably moreso, however I am sorry but your car is the one effectively "pushing in" and making it hard for them to complete their turn safely. They probably thought you were going to stop as you should have, just as you "thought it was amber for a long time"

Since I posted about my near encounter I am happy to say I haven't run a single amber haha. Funny how many people zoom past me now though. Or turn into the other lane to get through the amber. Police don't stop em either! Maybe i'll get pulled over for "dangerously stopping when I could of made it" XD

[baxr6]

This happened to me aswell, except I was the person turning right.
I got t-boned by a merc which wrote of my car and caused $12,000 of damage to the merc.

I was found at fault for pulling out in front of oncoming traffic, absolute BS.

I was a red p plater and the cops and judge said I was at fault...even though the lady sped up over the 50km speed limit to make a orange light which had turned red when I started turning...

I had no insurance at the time so had to pay the 12gz off over a few years..also got a nice fine for "wreck less driving"

[K93George]

Originally Posted by baxr6

This happened to me aswell, except I was the person turning right.
I got t-boned by a merc which wrote of my car and caused $12,000 of damage to the merc.

I was found at fault for pulling out in front of oncoming traffic, absolute BS.

I was a red p plater and the cops and judge said I was at fault...even though the lady sped up over the 50km speed limit to make a orange light which had turned red when I started turning...

I had no insurance at the time so had to pay the 12gz off over a few years..also got a nice fine for "wreck less driving"

That's terrible! You have to be really careful turning right. Not a lot of people stop for amber, and this Merc driver most likely won't either. As you were found at fault people will assume it is ok to go through the amber.

It could also do with you being a P Plater and the Merc driver "would never do anything stupid, he/ she is a professional business man/ woman."
I know a guy who got t-boned by a beamer that ran a red light, she took it to court and won. No witnesses so they sided with the lady who "would never do such a thing". Or that guy might just be lying to me XD

[LTDHO]

Big problem today is people can not read intersections, so when the see amber, they nail it to get through.

Then BANG (or near miss).

[Silver Ghia]

You have to be very careful when turning right, especially after the lights have changed. Never assume the oncoming traffic is going to stop on the amber or red light. Also if there is a car coming from the opposite direction doing a right turn across in front of you, you have to be extra careful as oncoming vehicles behind them are normally not readily seen until too late.

[STINKY NINJA]

Very grey area here, be prepared for a prang if you want to run orange lights.
Just keep that in mind next time...

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by K93George

I was incredibly close, only a metre or so from hitting a car turning in front of me. The situation...

Driving dead on 60, light turns amber, continue driving, I start feeling like its been amber for too long, think to myself "hope I don't run the red". At this point I couldn't see anyone turning as multiple cars on my side where still trying to complete there turn, so this guy most likely didn't see me. I make it full car length into the intersection, still amber then out comes a car, I honestly didn't think I would stop in time, but fortunately I did. At this point it was red, I believe he pulled out as soon as it turned red, couldn't see anyone and continued his turn, sounds sensible. I really feel at fault here, could of stopped but didn't because... I knew I'd make it through on the amber? Bad mentality, so many do it, i'm just so happy I didn't hit him!

What do you guys think, running the amber because you can make it? Most of the time I stop but there are those random occasions where you miss judge the distance and think "hmm, could of stopped" or "could of made it".

If it were me, and you crashed, you would be getting a fail to stop, other person a fail to give way, possibly drive without due care and attention.
2 people breaking road rules causing an accident (if you crashed that is). Seriously, you should stop on an orange. Worst case scenario, if you stop and get rear ended at an orange, the other person will get the fine for "tailgaiting". Best case scenario is you didnt cause an accident. Sorry to be blunt. It only takes less than 40m to stop a BA onwards falcon from 60. If you had the time to see the orange, decide to keep going even though you thought it was orange for a long time, then manage to see a person drive in front of you and stop IN the intersection as the light turned red, you should have had plenty of time to stop. Not saying of course we have ALL done it before, and Im not saying your a crap driver. We have all been there multiple times and thought, I probably could have stopped for that, or saw it was orange when you look up and think "how long has that been orange for?".

[The Outsider]

Originally Posted by madmelon

The other driver also should not have entered the intersection unless they could clear the intersection. Basically, unless you can see a gap you can safely turn through, you don't enter the intersection. Same rule as for roundabouts. I know this isn't how people drive but it's something the instructor stressed to me when I was getting lessons all those years ago.

where does this thinking come from?
so many drivers around my area believe this to be true as well.
have the road rules changed in the last 15yrs since i learnt to drive?

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

It's not actually illegal to enter the intersection while green if you are waiting to turn, and its legal to complete the turn once through traffic had stopped (because of amber or red light)

glad there is still some sensible folk out there that understand the road rules

Originally Posted by K93George

I'm just changing the way I approach intersections, this was too close!

a lesson learned, good that you have taken this with the right attitude.

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by The Outsider

where does this thinking come from?
so many drivers around my area believe this to be true as well.
have the road rules changed in the last 15yrs since i learnt to drive?

It's always been law.
Road rule 170.
Stopping in or near an intersection

(1) A driver must not stop in an intersection unless:

(a) the driver is permitted to stop at that place under these Rules, or

(b) the intersection is a T-intersection without traffic lights and the driver stops along the continuous side of the continuing road at the intersection.

Originally Posted by The Outsider

glad there is still some sensible folk out there that understand the road rules

Ironic.

[AndrewR_AUII]

I HAVE been pinged for failing to stop on an Amber "Disobey traffic signal", and to be honest it was a fair cop.

I have noticed that last year or so that people push the boundary on when to stop, which makes it difficult for those on the intersection waiting to turn right....

[OffRoadFalcon]

I ALWAYS stop at amber if possible. I also watch lights as I approach so I can attempt to judge when they will change from green to amber. Often I will also slow down a little as I get nearer, for more chance of stopping in time, or if it's too late I can accelerate to the speed limit to get through in time.
That's what I've been taught anyway, seems to work very well.

Sometimes when I usually would be able to stop, I have to keep going through the amber (never been through a red, because I would have had time to stop if I were that far away) because of fragile loads. Usually framed pieces of Dad's landscape photos to an exhibition or shop, if I were to stop, boxes/pieces would move around and potentially get damaged.

[The Outsider]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

It's always been law.
Road rule 170.
Stopping in or near an intersection

(1) A driver must not stop in an intersection unless:

(a) the driver is permitted to stop at that place under these Rules, or

(b) the intersection is a T-intersection without traffic lights and the driver stops along the continuous side of the continuing road at the intersection.

Ironic.

yes ironic indeed.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...s_handbook.pdf

page 92:-

traffic lights
When turning right at traffic lights:
• Enter the intersection as shown in the diagram, unless a sign indicates otherwise or there is a red right turn arrow displayed.
• Wait until oncoming traffic clears or breaks and then turn safely.
If the lights change to yellow or red while you are in the middle of the
intersection, you are allowed to turn right. You must turn as soon as it is safe to do
so.

i know my NSW road rules well enough.

thanks for playing.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

It's always been law.
Road rule 170.
Stopping in or near an intersection

(1) A driver must not stop in an intersection unless:

(a) the driver is permitted to stop at that place under these Rules, or

(b) the intersection is a T-intersection without traffic lights and the driver stops along the continuous side of the continuing road at the intersection.

Ironic.

If you look at the section this Rule 170 is in (Part 12 - Restrictions on Stopping and Parking) , it is only relevant when the vehicle is stopping say to pick up a passenger or attending to your mobile phone, not turning right and stopping to give way to oncoming traffic.

Rules 31 and 32 refer to starting a right turn:

31 Starting a right turn from a road (except a multilane road)
(1) A driver turning right at an intersection from a road (except a multi-lane road) must approach and enter the intersection in accordance with this rule.

32 Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road
(1) A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection from within the right lane unless—
(a) the driver is required or permitted to approach and enter the intersection from within another marked lane in accordance with rule 89(1), 92 or 159;

Rule 61 says what to do when the lights change to amber or red:

61 Proceeding when traffic lights or arrows at an
intersection change to yellow or red
(1) This rule applies to:
(a) a driver at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light who has stopped after the stop line, stop here on red signal sign, or nearest or only traffic lights, at the intersection and is not making a hook
turn at the intersection; or
(b) a driver at an intersection with traffic arrows showing a green traffic arrow who is turning in the direction indicated by the arrow and has stopped after the stop line, stop here on red arrow sign, or nearest or only traffic
arrows, at the intersection.
Example
A driver may stop after the stop line at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light, and not proceed through the intersection, because traffic is congested.

(5) If the traffic lights or traffic arrows (as the case may be) change to yellow or red while the driver is stopped and the driver has entered the
intersection, the driver must leave the intersection as soon as the driver can do so safely.

I have deleted paragraphs not relevant, for space reasons.

These rules show that you do in fact enter the intersection to turn right, as long as the lights are green.

The Vic rules are identical to the much clearer NSW rules as posted by The Outsider.

[Mitch_]

Originally Posted by TE 220

Very grey area here, be prepared for a prang if you want to run orange lights.
Just keep that in mind next time...

dont know how its a grey area - car travelling straight has right of way - the other car is turning accross traffic, just because the light goes orange doesnt mean he now has right of way!

[Itsme]

When approaching any intersection with cars at the intersection I would definitely slow down to a safe speed to stop just in case a person misjudges what they are doing.
Approaching an intersection doing the speed limit against amber light is just inviting trouble regardless.

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

If you look at the section this Rule 170 is in (Part 12 - Restrictions on Stopping and Parking) , it is only relevant when the vehicle is stopping say to pick up a passenger or attending to your mobile phone, not turning right and stopping to give way to oncoming traffic.

Where exactly does it say that Rule 170 applies when stopping to answer phone or picking up a passenger?

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Rules 31 and 32 refer to starting a right turn:

31 Starting a right turn from a road (except a multilane road)
(1) A driver turning right at an intersection from a road (except a multi-lane road) must approach and enter the intersection in accordance with this rule.

32 Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road
(1) A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection from within the right lane unless—
(a) the driver is required or permitted to approach and enter the intersection from within another marked lane in accordance with rule 89(1), 92 or 159;:

However, Road rule must also be considered prior to entering
128 Entering blocked intersections

A driver must not enter an intersection if the driver cannot drive through the intersection because the intersection, or a road beyond the intersection, is blocked.

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Rule 61 says what to do when the lights change to amber or red

61 Proceeding when traffic lights or arrows at an
intersection change to yellow or red
(1) This rule applies to:
(a) a driver at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light who has stopped after the stop line, stop here on red signal sign, or nearest or only traffic lights, at the intersection and is not making a hook
turn at the intersection; or
(b) a driver at an intersection with traffic arrows showing a green traffic arrow who is turning in the direction indicated by the arrow and has stopped after the stop line, stop here on red arrow sign, or nearest or only traffic
arrows, at the intersection.
Example
A driver may stop after the stop line at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light, and not proceed through the intersection, because traffic is congested.

(5) If the traffic lights or traffic arrows (as the case may be) change to yellow or red while the driver is stopped and the driver has entered the
intersection, the driver must leave the intersection as soon as the driver can do so safely.

I have deleted paragraphs not relevant, for space reasons.

These rules show that you do in fact enter the intersection to turn right, as long as the lights are green.

The Vic rules are identical to the much clearer NSW rules as posted by The Outsider.

Agreed whilst also considering rule 128 as above.

[pauljh74]

A number of years ago I was waiting to turn right in the intersection and the lights changed - saw the oncoming car and he had enough time to stop safely. I thought I saw the nose dip from braking and started to turn. At this point the yellow is a split second from going to red. He hits the anchors and turned some front tyre into smoke. I realised I was at fault, but he also should have stopped to begin with and could have done so safely. Even if there was a collision and no witnesses, I'd cop most of or all of the blame as he'd say it was yellow and I could say he should have stopped. The obvious facts are I turned in front of him, but there's nothing to show he did the wrong thing. Then there's the high chance of injury at 60km/h vs a car side on at 10km/h.

All the OP can do here is to take extra care at intersections with no arrows on the yellow and cars waiting to turn. The ones with (red) arrows I'd tend to run the yellow more, but without the arrows, don't push your luck, as someone will assume you are stopping if the yellow is about to change and will pull out.

[Unblievable]

A while back on a rainy night, I was traveling at 60km/h while the traffic lights in front of me turned yellow. The distance I had was in between "braking harder" to stop or just drive though and naturally I chose to drive though.

Admittingly I throttled though the lights to not get caught by the red signal when the police witnessed my actions. They saw me drive past them while waiting for the light to turn green.

As I pulled up to greet the police officer, she asked why I didn't stop. I said "because I felt it was not safe enough to do so given the wet road". The officer told me that was ok, however they pulled me up because I accelerated (given away by my exhaust lol) though the yellow and borderlined speeding, was let off with a warning.

Moral of this story is that it is OK to continue driving though a Yellow Signal *only if you can NOT stop safely without being a hazard to other drivers*