rekon dev5 or manual + dev3hl?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Sox

Pretty much, I'll fit the JMM headers and exhaust (DEV3), then probably get a flash tuner.
I had it dynoed today at 137rwkw, standard.

Rick.

Damn thats alright..hmm BA engine in E series would be nice, but thats another thread!

/polyal runs off to price a BA engine and ecu...lol

So if a Dev3hl kit is 2700, i already have an zorts, so minus 450 = 2250 would be about right I would think.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by neb

sox i think he means with extractors

also you don't need new spark plugs and leads unless the ones you already have are stuffed. so its a bit of a waste unless you need them. i know they are 'performance' ones but i doubt it makes much difference.

True enough, then they can be deducted from the total JMM price, or you add them to your parts breakdown, your choice, but compare apples with apples.

They may make a difference however, as the leads JMM use a spiral core, a lot of cheaper leads aren't. The plugs they use are also supposed to help with detonation.

This again all leads to a package which is carefully put together and guaranteed good results.

Rick.

[BoZZa17]

die hard jmm fan?

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by Sox

Vernier gears are typically $180, though have been on special for $120.

I paid $100 for my vernier gear (Chris Milton Engine developments). I am pretty sure that is their standard price

Originally Posted by Sox

You forgot spark plugs which are minimum of $20, though can be as much as $40.
You also forgot leads, which can be as little as $50, or as much as $150.

You might not need them so why pay? If you do then add them in, they are not exactly high price items.

Originally Posted by Sox

Everything is hard to do if you don't know how, sure for you and I it's a piece of cake, but that's not the point, he doesn't want to or know how to do it himself.

That is the beauty of it. If you want to learn there is heaps of info and help out there (and on here) for you. The engine I am running now is the first I have built, I didnt know anything before I started (I probably thought I did) and I a hell of a lot of fun doing it. As you said it isnt for everyone though, and I respect that as well.

Originally Posted by Sox

I don't know where you had your cam installed and clocked up for $120, though I suspect the majority of mechanics will charge more like $250.

Cam was clocked at road and track, $120 for several runs in different positions.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by BoZZa17

die hard jmm fan?

Dunno about 'die hard' fan, though there gear works well.

As a drive in - drive out package they are hard to beat.

Sure there are other alternatives, and many have had good results with these alternatives, however for some people JMM are ideal.

Rick.

[neb]

I'll agree with that

[Sox]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

I paid $100 for my vernier gear (Chris Milton Engine developments). I am pretty sure that is their standard price

That's the lowest price I've seen, and I doubt too many others here have bought one that cheap.

You might not need them so why pay? If you do then add them in, they are not exactly high price items.

See post 32 about that.

That is the beauty of it. If you want to learn there is heaps of info and help out there (and on here) for you. The engine I am running now is the first I have built, I didnt know anything before I started (I probably thought I did) and I a hell of a lot of fun doing it. As you said it isnt for everyone though, and I respect that as well.

I understand, I can pretty much build most engines blindfolded, I also know good engineering and R&D when I see it.

Cam was clocked at road and track, $120 for several runs in different positions.

I don't doubt what you paid, though I suspect they were mates rates, or they under quoted you, by a lot.
Most will charge a lot more.

Rick.

[Stav]

Originally Posted by BoZZa17

yeah
well dev5 and 5speed convertion is out of it simply coz of money

so i am liking this dev3hl and 5speed conversion option. that is with using a set of headers and rest of the exhaust from my aunty. should save a bit of cash.

DONT!!!!! Go and get the xorst and extractors and CHIP !!!!

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

I paid $100 for my vernier gear (Chris Milton Engine developments). I am pretty sure that is their standard price.

yeah i baught mine aggggggggggges ago (never installed it) cant remember where from, $105 i think i paid, cant remember where from. Its a Rolmaster unit.

Ive been quoted arround $150 for dialing in a cam/adjusting a AFPR on a dyno, including 3 or 4 power runs.

[Thanatos]

Ok, most of you know my thoughts on JMM! But I have to say, for those who are not mechanically minded, then they offer one of the only COMPLETE drive-in, drive-out packages around.


Having said that, I feel i must add my own experiences to some of the comments made above:

Originally Posted by Sox

That's the lowest price I've seen, and I doubt too many others here have bought one that cheap.

I paid $120 RRP over the counter at AUTOBARN! I have no doubt that autobarn is not the cheapest place to buy something like this (but i liked the chick behind the counter, so i was looking for any excuse to go there :P)

Originally Posted by Sox

I don't doubt what you paid, though I suspect they were mates rates, or they under quoted you, by a lot.
Most will charge a lot more.

I have tried a few different cams now, and the MOST i have ever paid to have one dialed in and dyno tuned was $160. The others have all been around $120-140.

Originally Posted by Sox

They may make a difference however, as the leads JMM use a spiral core, a lot of cheaper leads aren't. The plugs they use are also supposed to help with detonation.

JMM use one of the cheapest (brand-name) spiral core leads around, they can be had over the counter for $55 from most auto places. Gee-whizz spark plugs are not required to make power - I use standard XR6 plugs and have never felt the need for anything else.

Originally Posted by Sox

If valve springs are not needed, then it won't make as much power as a DEV3HL

This statement honestly made me laugh!!! How can someone who claims to be as knowledgable and experienced as yourself possible think that lift is the ONLY way to make any kind of power???

"Oh, that cam has more lift, therefore it must have more power." LMAO!!!

Originally Posted by Stockstandard

Pod - say $100

I'm using a $25 cheapo pod filter from Super Cheap. Flows alright to me! ;)

[Damo]

i luv these threads.. :

[Thanatos]

Having said the above, if you decide to get a JMM package, then i would recomend getting them to do the lot (exhaust, etc. as well), because they WILL try and tell you that the stuff you have is utter crap, and convince you that their's is the ONLY one that even works (all of the others cause you to lose power over stock, apparently! :P).

If you have all of their components, then they can guarantee the package they are selling. If not, and you are not satisfied or some problem occurs, they can easily blame it on your "inferior" product... (this is not a stab at JMM, but something i would recomend to anyone considering a package deal from any business)

[neil101]

I have the the DEV3HL cam in my ED manual and it is quiet impressive I was happy with it when I first put it in now I want more!

Sox is right compare apples with apples, I have beaten other manual falcons with the so called great wade cam with ease (and yes they were running at there peak)

A classic example of going the cheaper way is my mate, he has a AU xls ute didn't want to spend the right amount of money to get his car going how it should didn't research things properly ignored advice and didn't get the results he expected.
He put a crow cam in lucky extractors 2.5 zorst and a k&n filter put it all pack together idled like a pig (read didn't idle at all) so of to chip talk he went to have it fixed 1400 later it idles put hunts and rocks the car total i think he spent just over 2300 feels pretty boggy below 2800 once it gets to 3000 it gets going and only make 134rwkw.

My 2 cents worth JJM is pricey but works and gives close to what he promises
at the end of the day you have to decide whats good bang for your buck

Neil

[BoZZa17]

lol
what have i started? =\

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by neil101

A classic example of going the cheaper way is my mate, he has a AU xls ute didn't want to spend the right amount of money to get his car going how it should didn't research things properly ignored advice and didn't get the results he expected.
He put a crow cam in lucky extractors 2.5 zorst and a k&n filter put it all pack together idled like a pig (read didn't idle at all) so of to chip talk he went to have it fixed 1400 later it idles put hunts and rocks the car total i think he spent just over 2300 feels pretty boggy below 2800 once it gets to 3000 it gets going and only make 134rwkw.

I agree, compare apples with apples, but (no offence) this is far from conclusive proof!

You said yourself, you're mate didn't research and ignored advice! It almost seems like you are saying JMM makes up one side and ALL of the cams and performance parts comprise the other side. This is far from the case. If you don't use the right components, naturally the car is not going to work as well as it could. There are many cams out there, some are good some are bad. An example of someone who chose poorly is not conclusive proof, i'm afraid.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by neil101

Sox is right compare apples with apples

which has been done...

Originally Posted by neil101

I have beaten other manual falcons with the so called great wade cam with ease (and yes they were running at there peak)

And I bet there are wades out there that can beat yours. Did these cars have all the other stuff making it an apples to apples comparison?

Originally Posted by neil101

A classic example of going the cheaper way is my mate, he has a AU xls ute didn't want to spend the right amount of money to get his car going how it should didn't research things properly ignored advice and didn't get the results he expected.
He put a crow cam in lucky extractors 2.5 zorst and a k&n filter put it all pack together idled like a pig (read didn't idle at all) so of to chip talk he went to have it fixed 1400 later it idles put hunts and rocks the car total i think he spent just over 2300 feels pretty boggy below 2800 once it gets to 3000 it gets going and only make 134rwkw.

So you are saying coz your mate went cheap and did no research that it doesnt work? What is being suggested is that if you do your research you can get the same results for less money and learn a lot about your car. If you throw together mods without matching parts properly what do you expect?

BTW: 134rwkw is a good result. Shame about the tune.

Edit: Sorry bozza, this stuff really isnt helping you make your decision. Ill just *watch* this thread for a while and see how it goes.

[b2tf]

This Mock stuff always causes this kind of debate. lets just hope it doesnt get closed this time.

The way I see it, the Mock kit is probably the best choice for the average car owner who just wants more go out of the **** end of their falcon.

The other alternatives are:

* Have your work done by a mechanic you select yourself, using bits you select.

* Do it yourself, again with bits you select.

The issue here is money. JMM have proven time and again that their stuff works, although to varying degrees of truth ( i have my doubts about their figures and some things theyve claimed due to things ive read on here, and read about peoples experience with them). And there is no doubt that stuff like Pacies etc will work too. The only problem there is that some parts may not have the desired effect when theyre combined with other brands.

Plain and simple - if yuo want drive in, drive out power - Mock. If you're happy to experiment - pick your own stuff. And let the budget dictate it. Dont compromise on your kW goal, work within your means.

[INJECTED_250]

What can i say..... sox more lift more power mmmm nice comment mate :>

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

I have tried a few different cams now, and the MOST i have ever paid to have one dialed in and dyno tuned was $160. The others have all been around $120-140.

I'm talking about fitted and dialed in, not just dialed in.

JMM use one of the cheapest (brand-name) spiral core leads around, they can be had over the counter for $55 from most auto places.

And your point is?
My point is it is just one other item which is never included in these so called cheaper alternative price break downs.

Gee-whizz spark plugs are not required to make power - I use standard XR6 plugs and have never felt the need for anything else.

And how are you able to verify exactly how you have not 'felt the need' to not have any other plug?
I gather you have done back to back dyno testing to prove your claims?

I know for a fact that the plugs JMM supply helped my DEV5 with minor detonation issues.
Whilst I didn't dyno it to see the power difference, detonation does hurt power, so it is very likely that my DEV5 produced slightly more power than the last 173kw would indicate.

The detonation was so slight that the dyno operator picked it up on the graph, only after that could I detect a faint pinging at high revs. After going back to the JMM plugs, the detonation was not evident.

This statement honestly made me laugh!!! How can someone who claims to be as knowledgable and experienced as yourself possible think that lift is the ONLY way to make any kind of power???

And where precisely did I say it was the only way to make power?
All other cam specs being equal, a higher lift will produce more power, up to a certain threshold. Fact.

If you are able to prove other wise, then do so.

Ramp rates also effect valve spring pressure.

"Oh, that cam has more lift, therefore it must have more power." LMAO!!!

You might want to wipe the egg off your face now......

I'm using a $25 cheapo pod filter from Super Cheap. Flows alright to me! ;)

Good for you, though of course it does, no one said it doesn't.
For the record, it's the same one JMM use.

Rick.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by INJECTED_250

What can i say..... sox more lift more power mmmm nice comment mate :>

Sure is, can you prove otherwise, all other cam specs being equal?..... I thought not.

Rick.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

I'm talking about fitted and dialed in, not just dialed in.

Fair enough. In that case add $50 for fitting...

Originally Posted by Sox

And your point is?
My point is it is just one other item which is never included in these so called cheaper alternative price break downs.

My point is that you obviously didn't know how much they were worth (as you theorised anywhere between $50 and $150). I know how much they are worth, so I informed you. Their price can now be included in the cheaper alternative price break down, just like you wanted.

Originally Posted by Sox

And how are you able to verify exactly how you have not 'felt the need' to not have any other plug?
I gather you have done back to back dyno testing to prove your claims?

I know for a fact that the plugs JMM supply helped my DEV5 with minor detonation issues.
Whilst I didn't dyno it to see the power difference, detonation does hurt power, so it is very likely that my DEV5 produced slightly more power than the last 173kw would indicate.

The detonation was so slight that the dyno operator picked it up on the graph, only after that could I detect a faint pinging at high revs. After going back to the JMM plugs, the detonation was not evident.

I have tested a few different spark plugs (granted not JMM ones, however), but that is not the point i was trying to make.

Detonation hurts power. Agreed. And if the Dev5 has detonation, then the JMM plugs (or similar) would be required. However, it's VERY unlikely that you will have detonation on an untouched head (which is what we are talking about here, being a Dev3HL). Hence, a change of spark plugs would not be required in order to make power.

Originally Posted by Sox

And where precisely did I say it was the only way to make power?
All other cam specs being equal, a higher lift will produce more power, up to a certain threshold. Fact.

If you are able to prove other wise, then do so.

Ramp rates also effect valve spring pressure.

What you said is that if a cam doesn't require stiffer valve springs, it will not make as much power as a Dev3HL (which does require stiffer springs).

Of course, a cam with the same specs apart from higher lift will produce more power. However, we are not talking about a cam with the same specs, it was NEVER even mentioned and is TOTALLY irrevelant.

Power can be made using different aspects of a cam other than lift, so just because a cam requires stiffer valve springs DOES NOT mean it has more power!

I would have thought that someone who claims to have had as much engine building experience as yourself would know this (and i suspect you do!).

Originally Posted by Sox

You might want to wipe the egg off your face now......

Thanks for the tip!

Although, I went to wipe off the egg, and found my face to be clear of anything. :P

Originally Posted by Sox

Good for you, though of course it does, no one said it doesn't.
For the record, it's the same one JMM use.

Rick.

I was merely pointing out that the $100 allocated by stockstandard was not actually required, and that a $25 item can do the job just as well.

Hey, if you're going to correct people anytime something is under-valued, then i might as well correct them when it is over-valued! :P


Cheers,
Dave

[dansedgli]

Has anyone tried the DEV 3 cam with normal valve springs? Only the mocks know the specs dont they? Are valve springs really needed?

[Thanatos]

Yes, they would be needed. The Dev3HL has the same lift as the Dev5 AFAIK.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Fair enough. In that case add $50 for fitting...

I'd add more than that, HLA's need to be stripped, shims added, etc, etc.
I think you'll find most will charge around $250 to install and clock up a cam.

My point is that you obviously didn't know how much they were worth (as you theorised anywhere between $50 and $150). I know how much they are worth, so I informed you.

I wasn't implying that I did know, my point was to emphasize leads are included in the JMM kit, and people can spend anywhere from $50 to $150 for leads. If purchasing the JMM kit, they are not needed as the homework is done for them.

Their price can now be included in the cheaper alternative price break down, just like you wanted.

Though I bet next time this debate happens, it won't be included.

I have tested a few different spark plugs (granted not JMM ones, however), but that is not the point i was trying to make.

Dyno testing I presume? Longevity testing? Finding the maximum amount of advance each plug can handle before detonation sets in?

Detonation hurts power. Agreed. And if the Dev5 has detonation, then the JMM plugs (or similar) would be required. However, it's VERY unlikely that you will have detonation on an untouched head (which is what we are talking about here, being a Dev3HL). Hence, a change of spark plugs would not be required in order to make power.

Tell us why plugs won't matter because of the head? Are DEV3HL's immune to detonation?

What you said is that if a cam doesn't require stiffer valve springs, it will not make as much power as a Dev3HL (which does require stiffer springs).

Of course, a cam with the same specs apart from higher lift will produce more power. However, we are not talking about a cam with the same specs, it was NEVER even mentioned and is TOTALLY irrevelant.

How so? It wasn't mentioned that the specs may not have been the same either.

Power can be made using different aspects of a cam other than lift, so just because a cam requires stiffer valve springs DOES NOT mean it has more power!

FYI, maximum power is mostly governed by lift.
Duration typically sets where maximum power will peak.
Naturally there are other parameters which have an effect on power, however lift is one very important figure.

I would have thought that someone who claims to have had as much engine building experience as yourself would know this (and i suspect you do!).

Perhaps you should read up on camshaft design.

Thanks for the tip!

Although, I went to wipe off the egg, and found my face to be clear of anything. :P

You better have another look.

I was merely pointing out that the $100 allocated by stockstandard was not actually required, and that a $25 item can do the job just as well.

True enough, though it's not just the air filter that JMM supply, they modify the air box lid, fit the pipe work to make the filter fit, the bigger snorkel, etc.

Rick.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Yes, they would be needed. The Dev3HL has the same lift as the Dev5 AFAIK.

No they don't, there is around 0.020" difference from memory.

Rick.

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Sox

Dyno testing I presume? Longevity testing? Finding the maximum amount of advance each plug can handle before detonation sets in?

Gee you love your dyno and durability testing dont ya? I think Ive heard you mention something is useless without years of testing about 30 times in the last couple of days.

Thanatos' car doesnt ping or have any detonation problems. This would mean his spark is fine wouldn't it? They dont have to give him the maximum power a spark plug can give, he makes enough NA power anyway. For the sake of .3 of a kilowatt a spark plug that does its job and nothing more is plenty. I dont need dyno tests to prove that.

You remind me one of those guys that tells people he cant do a turbo setup without a full rebuild of his engine cos it just wont work.

If its not broke it doesnt need fixing IMO.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by Sox

Though I bet next time this debate happens, it won't be included.

Arghh, why should it be included? If somebody want a shopping list then by all means list every part. If they want a price then the inital $1500 figure covers it all. There isnt some conspiracy to make things seem cheaper than they are.

Regarding this whole "egg on face issue", your statement was that because the wade did not require valve springs the dev3 would make more power. IMHO this statement, while quite possibly correct, is making assumptions about the cam profiles that we dont know about. As I read it, it certainly implies the message that the cam with the biggest lift makes the most power. Since not all other factors about the cams are equal the statement is pretty meaningless. Lets just move on.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by dansedgli

Gee you love your dyno and durability testing dont ya? I think Ive heard you mention something is useless without years of testing about 30 times in the last couple of days.

Money is hard to come by, I like to know if something works or not, if you don't, good for you.

Thanatos' car doesnt ping or have any detonation problems. This would mean his spark is fine wouldn't it?

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know.
Different plugs 'may' allow him to run more timing, in turn produce more power, that's anyones guess considering his combination.

I know it worked that way on my DEV5.

They dont have to give him the maximum power a spark plug can give, he makes enough NA power anyway. For the sake of .3 of a kilowatt a spark plug that does its job and nothing more is plenty. I dont need dyno tests to prove that.

And if you and he are happy with that, fantastic.

The point I'm making is that the plugs, leads, and whatver ever JMM use, do have a bearing on the final outcome of there packages, it's reasonably easily justifiable, if you don't want to do it, don't knock someone who does, or prove that it doesn't work as claimed.

At the end of the day, it certainly does appear the JMM cars have the dyno numbers and track numbers to back up what they do.

You remind me one of those guys that tells people he cant do a turbo setup without a full rebuild of his engine cos it just wont work.

If its not broke it doesnt need fixing IMO.

For the record, I wouldn't do it on a standard engine, though by all means, knock yourself out.

Rick.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Arghh, why should it be included?

Because you're comparing a complete drive in - drive out package to your own half baked concoction, and then claiming the JMM stuff is expensive.

If somebody want a shopping list then by all means list every part. If they want a price then the inital $1500 figure covers it all.

Bollocks, it lists what you feel is necessary, not what is needed.

There isnt some conspiracy to make things seem cheaper than they are.

Regarding this whole "egg on face issue", your statement was that because the wade did not require valve springs the dev3 would make more power. IMHO this statement, while quite possibly correct, is making assumptions about the cam profiles that we dont know about. As I read it, it certainly implies the message that the cam with the biggest lift makes the most power. Since not all other factors about the cams are equal the statement is pretty meaningless. Lets just move on.

Strawman anyone?

Rick.

[stockstandard]

lol - half baked concoction. I might have to add that to my sig.

Just go for it sox. Argue with anyone who disagrees with you and tell us what we are saying instead of listening to it. Maybe in 5 years time we can all forget about trying our own half baked ideas and all just buy the same off the shelf package.