January motor: what happened to the pro holden bias?

[ADSXR8]

Originally Posted by Smoked

Motor not bagging Ford?

I'd say your copy is definately faulty. Take it back to the dealer and have it replaced under warranty.

Maybe the magazine will be RECALLED. Will have to fix some glitches and try again.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by flappist

I just received my Jan '07 MOTOR with the PCOTY results.

My copy is faulty. It shows the GTS & SSV being beaten by Fords.
Not only does it show the GTS being beaten by TWO XR6Ts and the F6 but ALSO by the SSV.

Surely this is not the actions of a totally pro holden biased magazine.

Surely the GTS must beat all of these.....or did HSV slip up and send a standard as delivered to customers one......

And my favorite bit of all:

F6 0-100 km/h 5.6.
GTS 0-100 km/h 5.5 (I thought they were 5.0 in the brochure?)

F6 0-400m 13.7 @ 173.3 km/h
GTS 0-400m 13.7 @ 170.7 km/h (Must have left the spare tyre, seats and whatever in it)

F6 0-1000m 24.5 @ 223.1 km/h
GTS 0-1000m 24.6 @ 218.4 km/h

F6, bottom of the range FPV, $60k
GTS, top of the range HSV, $80k

Got to be rigged.........

/me sits and waits for slick troll's reply

All well and good if you are a diehard Ford nut, but are these official figures or just someone being mischevious? What Australian Standard did the magazine adhere to? The GTS is supposed to be 4.96 manual and 5.05 automatic 0-100 and the Typhoon is 5.5. Surely if GM were lying, Ford would have used it in their advertising?

I thought the E series GTS was $75k list ? I also thought the Senator was top of the Holden pile?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Wally

All well and good if you are a diehard Ford nut, but are these official figures or just someone being mischevious? What Australian Standard did the magazine adhere to? The GTS is supposed to be 4.96 manual and 5.05 automatic 0-100 and the Typhoon is 5.5. Surely if GM were lying, Ford would have used it in their advertising?

I thought the E series GTS was $75k list ? I also thought the Senator was top of the Holden pile?

Gee you do a lot of thinking......

According to HSV.com.au a GTS auto is $76990 RRP but when I looked at one a few weeks ago it was offered to me at $80k on road.

Neither Ford nor FPV have ever released an official 0-100 or 400m time for any BA/BF.

I personally believe that Ford/FPV would never accuse Holden/HSV of lying because they want to win by being BETTA and not allow underhanded skullduggery and unsportsmanlike behavior to take its TOLL on their credibility and that of their products.

The Australian standard used by MOTOR was; a group of Australian drivers took a number of cars supplied by Australian car manufacturer/importers to number test areas in Australia in Australian weather conditions and measured them against each other.
Not very scientific, more just real world evidence.....

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by flappist

I personally believe that Ford/FPV would never accuse Holden/HSV of lying because they want to win by being BETTA and not allow underhanded skullduggery and unsportsmanlike behavior to take its TOLL on their credibility and that of their products.

HAHAHAHA...thats a great line!

I was actually thinking the same thing, I wonder if this V8SC fiasco will effect HSV sales. It wont stop the die hard bogans, but perhaps the swingers wont want to be associate with that sort of behavior?

Wally, mate your on some serious sh|t. :yeees:

[Wally]

Why is it you boys have to resort to slandering members like me? I ask legitimate questions and because you are ill equiped to respond in kind you go down the insult trail. I would appreciate, if you don't have the maturity to discuss things civily, that you keep your thoughts to yourself and maybe work on becoming less juvenile around grownups.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Wally

Why is it you boys have to resort to slandering members like me? I ask legitimate questions and because you are ill equiped to respond in kind you go down the insult trail. I would appreciate, if you don't have the maturity to discuss things civily, that you keep your thoughts to yourself and maybe work on becoming less juvenile around grownups.

Mate, why on gods name would there be some kind of standard for driving around a track, or down a drag strip?

The cars are dead stock, from the factory, they put some fuel in them and fang the crap out of them until they get some times or the thing dies.

A mature post gets a mature response.

[Wally]

Well we are dealing with comparisons here and in that environment there has to be a standard set of guidelines. There is driver bias, track conditions, environmental conditions, etc. If you put a professional driver in the seat of a car and had him do a perfromance run one day, I'm sure his times would be different on a subsequent day in the same car.

[Polyal]

Well you will have to buy the magazine, they outline how they do everything before the article starts.

From memory its all done on the same day, same driver (actually I think there are about 4 different drivers who drive all of them), theres some kind of points system and thats about it.

Its not a very complicated thing. Hammer a car, get the times, who's the fastest, or who performs best overall.

[fordAU]

Look at the times of the 911 Turbo, that is one very very quick motor vehicle.

[ADSXR8]

Originally Posted by Wally

I would appreciate, if you don't have the maturity to discuss things civily, that you keep your thoughts to yourself and maybe work on becoming less juvenile around grownups.

Hey Wally, are you refering to slandering such as the above.

Perhaps your argument could have been put forward in a better manner. As said by Flappist, Ford/FPV has not claimed any performance times for any of its vehicles since late 2002. Holden always have, and using your words, “The GTS is supposed to be 4.96 manual and 5.05 automatic 0-100” in this case seems just not true.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

Gee you do a lot of thinking......

According to HSV.com.au a GTS auto is $76990 RRP but when I looked at one a few weeks ago it was offered to me at $80k on road.

Neither Ford nor FPV have ever released an official 0-100 or 400m time for any BA/BF.

I personally believe that Ford/FPV would never accuse Holden/HSV of lying because they want to win by being BETTA and not allow underhanded skullduggery and unsportsmanlike behavior to take its TOLL on their credibility and that of their products.

The Australian standard used by MOTOR was; a group of Australian drivers took a number of cars supplied by Australian car manufacturer/importers to number test areas in Australia in Australian weather conditions and measured them against each other.
Not very scientific, more just real world evidence.....

one of the best posts i have ever read on this forum . well said flappist.

[Wally]

Harking back to the original starter post, there is some obvious sarcasm about Motor magazine being biased, even the thread title makes it's own statement. But I seem to remember a comparo carried out by the same magazine in march last year which was flattering to the Typhoon and XR6T. I also seem to remember the results were skewed with 20% objective and 80% subjective weightings and that the Fords carked it on day three, necessitating a retest.

Since then Toyota have continued to outsell Holden who have continued to outsell Ford, the Nissan Skyline is still a legend and the earth still seems to be revolving around the sun.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by ADSF6

Hey Wally, are you refering to slandering such as the above.

Perhaps your argument could have been put forward in a better manner. As said by Flappist, Ford/FPV has not claimed any performance times for any of its vehicles since late 2002. Holden always have, and using your words, “The GTS is supposed to be 4.96 manual and 5.05 automatic 0-100” in this case seems just not true.

thats why i always , always defend ford . standard gt , f6 , and xr6 t . always put out better power figures than advertised . holden always over rate they're product . :monkes:

[photn]

so how about the XR5T............How cool is that!!!!!!!

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by photn

so how about the XR5T............How cool is that!!!!!!!

Dead last...sweet!

I wonder why there was no Mazda MPS 3?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by ADSF6

Hey Wally, are you refering to slandering such as the above.

Perhaps your argument could have been put forward in a better manner. As said by Flappist, Ford/FPV has not claimed any performance times for any of its vehicles since late 2002. Holden always have, and using your words, “The GTS is supposed to be 4.96 manual and 5.05 automatic 0-100” in this case seems just not true.

That wasn't slander, but fact based on the drivel served up.

And yes you have been very good at replicating what I already posted ... so what. I get the distinct impression that you and others think I am in a Holden camp. This is not true, if anything I have an affection for the Fords, but I just can't come at blind faith arguments, thus why I ask for more info, to find out more facts.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Wally

That wasn't slander, but fact based on the drivel served up.

And yes you have been very good at replicating what I already posted ... so what. I get the distinct impression that you and others think I am in a Holden camp. This is not true, if anything I have an affection for the Fords, but I just can't come at blind faith arguments, thus why I ask for more info, to find out more facts.

Mate even if we tell you something, thats not going to help.

If you want the "real" answers buy the mag, or email the editor and ask about there test procedures etc etc.

[ADSXR8]

Originally Posted by Wally

That wasn't slander, but fact based on the drivel served up.

And yes you have been very good at replicating what I already posted ... so what. I get the distinct impression that you and others think I am in a Holden camp.

I have no opinion "on what camp you're in", and honestly don't care.

But going back to your original post, I disagree with your opinion of Ford attacking Holden for making inaccurate claims. I think there intentions are to make a better car and let the opposition over promise, under deliver.

[Flaming Mo]

Re: conspiracy theories on 1-100k times.

Wheels Magazine have run A GTS M6 at 5.2 (Showroom section at rear). Also in December issue of Motor Magazine, they ran the GTS at 5.4 while admitting to disregarding the cheat sheet instructions supplied by HSV technicians to run the vehicle at its optimum performance (of course - motor journo knows best).

The same magazines have run the FPV GT as slow as 6.3 and as fast as 5.6 (December issue - Motor Magazine). Are we to claim this faster, more efficient 5.6 second GT to be a hot one supplied by FPV.

My point is this. Given the vast differences in tested times for FPV vehicles, if a motoring journo doing a couple of runs can squeeze 5.2 out of a GTS, it is not inconceivable that a HSV technician with favourable conditions and most likely doing hundreds of runs can knock 2 tenths of a second off the journo.

And yes, they may not be real world or average times and perhaps took hundreds of runs, but it sounds like some of you are claiming Holden and HSV to be involved in public lying and a joint conspiracy with magazine editors becasue some bonehead journo is 2 tenths of a second slower than one of their technicians.

And the magazines are the biased ones you say.

[Rev28K]

woops. I think their was a typo in the GTS lap time. Other people on other forums reckon it should be 1:42 rather than 1:40secs.

That means that it isn't night and day between an F6 (auto) and a GTS (auto). Wonder how the manuals go?

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Smoked

Motor not bagging Ford?

I'd say your copy is definately faulty. Take it back to the dealer and have it replaced under warranty.

Hahaha
If a ford couldnt take it out im glad the RS4 did they are such an underestimated car and drop dead sexy too

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

Re: conspiracy theories on 1-100k times.

Wheels Magazine have run A GTS M6 at 5.2 (Showroom section at rear). Also in December issue of Motor Magazine, they ran the GTS at 5.4 while admitting to disregarding the cheat sheet instructions supplied by HSV technicians to run the vehicle at its optimum performance (of course - motor journo knows best).

The same magazines have run the FPV GT as slow as 6.3 and as fast as 5.6 (December issue - Motor Magazine). Are we to claim this faster, more efficient 5.6 second GT to be a hot one supplied by FPV.

My point is this. Given the vast differences in tested times for FPV vehicles, if a motoring journo doing a couple of runs can squeeze 5.2 out of a GTS, it is not inconceivable that a HSV technician with favourable conditions and most likely doing hundreds of runs can knock 2 tenths of a second off the journo.

And yes, they may not be real world or average times and perhaps took hundreds of runs, but it sounds like some of you are claiming Holden and HSV to be involved in public lying and a joint conspiracy with magazine editors becasue some bonehead journo is 2 tenths of a second slower than one of their technicians.

And the magazines are the biased ones you say.

As you are new to the forum I will assist you a bit here.

Do a bit of research in Wheels & Motor over the past eight or so years.
Holden have been actually caught entering a SS with a hotted up engine into a review. It performed so well that MOTOR smelled a rat. It was dynoed and found to be about 50rwkw up on others tested at the same time. Holden's reply "Oops sorry. must have accidentally send you a development mule".
At release time Holden/HSV have made available "demos" for the journos. These are always amazingly fast. GTO 4.99s 0-100, SSs that do 13.2 0-400. These are driven by journos not track stars. Later the same model, but different actual, vehicles are tested and they NEVER do as well.
This is not my opinion it is actual written information in the above mentioned mags.
You can laugh it off as "conspiracy theory" or "random event" but it has happened over and over again.

Once is happenstance, twice is co-incedance, three times is enemy action.

But then you bought an auto GTS so you are not biased are you......

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by flappist

As you are new to the forum I will assist you a bit here.

Do a bit of research in Wheels & Motor over the past eight or so years.
Holden have been actually caught entering a SS with a hotted up engine into a review. It performed so well that MOTOR smelled a rat. It was dynoed and found to be about 50rwkw up on others tested at the same time. Holden's reply "Oops sorry. must have accidentally send you a development mule".
At release time Holden/HSV have made available "demos" for the journos. These are always amazingly fast. GTO 4.99s 0-100, SSs that do 13.2 0-400. These are driven by journos not track stars. Later the same model, but different actual, vehicles are tested and they NEVER do as well.
This is not my opinion it is actual written information in the above mentioned mags.
You can laugh it off as "conspiracy theory" or "random event" but it has happened over and over again.

Once is happenstance, twice is co-incedance, three times is enemy action.

Well that was pretty much one of my tasks while I was at Ford, helping prepare cars that were at the point of development where they could be tested. So development cars can be used, but to say "opps" is not good enough, these cars are checked so many times over its painful.

There is no way in hell Ford would risk that, nor does it help them in the long run as any feedback is valuable, no matter whether its positive or negative.

Its also good that the magazines test the cars over and over. and naturally they are not going to get times the same over and over, so many variables like weather etc. Engine performance in particular is going to vary the most.

Anyway, its great to see the F6 still kicking butt!

Flappist, are you a subscriber? Do you know when its out to the rest of us who cant be bothered subscribing even though we buy it every month..LOL

[Wally]

An extract from drive.com.au 14/10/05

In a sign of the times, the turbocharged six-cylinder FPV Typhoon is reportedly faster than the V8. Matched to a six-speed automatic transmission, Ford says it accelerates from 0 to 100kmh in 5.3 seconds.

If this figure - recorded during internal testing - is correct, it makes the turbo FPV Falcon only a fraction slower than Australia's fastest sedan, the HSV Clubsport (powered by a 6.0-litre V8 from the Chevrolet Corvette) which can reach 100kmh in 5.1 seconds.

The 5.4-litre V8-powered GT Falcon, meanwhile, is reportedly capable of reaching 100kmh in 5.6 seconds when matched to the new six-speed auto transmission.

"We are not making any official performance claims," says FPV spokesman Andrew MacLean. "It's up to the media and third parties to independently test the vehicles and publish the figures if they wish.

[ADSXR8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Do you know when its out to the rest of us who cant be bothered subscribing even though we buy it every month..LOL

Hits the stands tomorrow.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by ADSF6

Hits the stands tomorrow.

Nice thanks, looking forward to the read.

Wally, what are you trying to prove?

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

A lot of the Holden hoo-ha is just bandwagon stuff. Like the Boxing Day Test. Like the Sydney Swans.

Watch it. The Boxing Day Test is not bandwagon stuff. It is an environment meticulously crafted to enable massive numbers of blokes to drink way too much and be even more jolly than Santa!

[Wally]

Just trying to reconcile the differences between manufacturers' figures and the original post. I thought it might be helpful to establish the manufacturers' test times.

Has anyone actually conducted a proper drag race with the two vehicles, so we can see the actual split times?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Wally

Just trying to reconcile the differences between manufacturers' figures and the original post. I thought it might be helpful to establish the manufacturers' test times.

Has anyone actually conducted a proper drag race with the two vehicles, so we can see the actual split times?

Manufacturers can claim all they like, its not until real people get out there and drive them do we really know what they are like.

So for now, a motoring magazine is going to have to do. We mightn't like what they say, but there times still stand.

[Sledgehammer]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

RS4 deserving winner, and such a desirable piece of machinery. Truly, insanely desirable. Like an automotive Jennifer Hawkins. If I had one I'd ... ..... ok maybe I'll take this offline for a few moments!

Interesting to see how well the Golf GTI did too, beat both the XR6T's. This could only mean one thing - Motor has a bias toward VW! :

Put it back in your pants.........

Are you ready for your ride?