Injected LPG for ford within a year! - Page 3

vztrt · 31-05-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownba

I think you will find that the system reverts back to petrol at high RPM and high load, as it does with the HSV's.
They are the same system after all and I know that HSV swap it to petrol at high revs.
I think maybee the Vialle has problems with injector flow or something like that, or they are just being conservative and don't want issues with melted cats or the like.
And I think some of the motive for HSV doing this is so they don't let petrol look rediculous, cause I know that JTG liquid injection on the 6.2L makes petrol look pathetic right over the whole range.
A mountain more torque down low and up to 25RWKW more power than petrol.!!!!!
Every car I have liquified has more power than petrol in some way.

You wouldn't have any dyno sheets, as i wanna see the torque figures.

blownba · 31-05-2009, 05:00 PM

Yeah Do a search in the LPG section. One of my customers/ conversions to JTG got a dyno run done and posted it in the liquid injection thread.
That was probably the lowest increase I have seen on the XR6T.
I don't have the printout of the VE as it wqas done at ALPGW's (APS's) dyno and I didn't get to keep it.

The main reason the 6.2L and 6.0L get such a gain is cause you can access a different map from the petrol ECU. So when you run gas you can run a different map and take advantage of the chemical supercharging effect of Li.
And vehicles that have been editied always give the best results as you can pour the tune into it when it runs Li. (especially ign. advance)
Most cars, 6's and 8's, will have a significant jump in torque or a spike at around 2000rpm. The XR6 will gain around 80 to 100NM and the VE gained a little more.
you'll see it on the dyno sheet of the XR in the liquid injection thread

blownba · 31-05-2009, 05:05 PM

Took a bit but I found it.
http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/o...273_resize.jpg

heres the page of the thread it came from;
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...quid+injection

naddis01 · 31-05-2009, 05:06 PM

So is the new system going to be dedicated gas or dual fuel? It doesnt actually say in that article, or did I miss that bit? It mentions after-OEM bi-fuel applications, but doesnt say what the Egas system will be.

gtfpv · 31-05-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Now here is a question for you. Why have you not converted your GT to LPG?

and a great question it is . i would not put lpg on my GT because . it is designed , developed, and cammed for petrol. an expensive engine has a little more research and deveopment for max performance than a standard everyday run of the mill engine .
2nd point . to get that power out of LPG IT would need a lot of attention, and woulod suck LPG LIKE THERE WAS NO TOMMOROW . . rendering the economy aspect useless.
3rd I would put liquid injected LPG on it ( when the technology is developed properly) no way at this stage . 1 year old technology / versus 120 years of petrol development ,at extremely expensive premium fitment price which negates viability.
and finally low kilometre driven weekend cars usually are not daily drivers, therefore the annual distance traveled would be utterly pointless.

blownba · 31-05-2009, 05:24 PM

Your very wrong about it being 1 year old technology.
It has been commercially available from many years now.

gtfpv · 31-05-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownba

Your very wrong about it being 1 year old technology.
It has been commercially available from many years now.

to increase the power on deisel engines am i wrong ??

i recall an australian guy inventing this about 5 years ago but couldnt market it , so sold it to the good OL YANKEE DANDIES . am i wrong ? ( thats awhat i thought anyways)

ratter · 31-05-2009, 05:43 PM

The technology comes from italy and has been used for over 5 years in europe, it is only 1 year old in aus due to patents that help back progress.

gtfpv · 31-05-2009, 05:49 PM

very interested in this as i have converted and used NA systems for years .

blownba · 31-05-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

to increase the power on deisel engines am i wrong ??

i recall an australian guy inventing this about 5 years ago but couldnt market it , so sold it to the good OL YANKEE DANDIES . am i wrong ? ( thats awhat i thought anyways)

nah they guy you are talking about did it more than 10 years ago, but it was frought with problems.
AFAIK he hasn't sold it to the Yanks.
They keep promising that they will be for sale soon but I have been hearing the same line for many, many years.
He is also the reason (well the company he is involved with and his investors) that we were not able to get liquid injection many years ago, like Europe, US and Japan.
they have had factory fitted JTG liquid injection cars for ages now. Subaru have a full range of cars they did with JTG liquid injection. And Roush (famous US Ford tuning house) have a F150 performance ute running it as a OEM unit. And heaps of European Manufactureres offer it as a option.
But once again cause of this Aussie clown and his patent he actively stopped and liquid injection systems being imported and sold in Aus.
Aus LPG warehouse finally stood up to them and got the licence rights to sell liquid injection and are currently the only ones allowed to sell it is a aftermarket unit.
So unfortunatley the system that Ford will be using will not be able to be sold as aftermarket kits.
JTG Liquid injection is totally amazing stuff. I have been fitting it since the start and have been a big advocate for it, because IT WORKS, and is the best thing I have seen in LPG since.... well since forever!!!!
And it is more than capable of running your GT and giving you more power than petrol, right across the range and all at a dollar less a litre.

Gobes32 · 31-05-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

and a great question it is . i would not put lpg on my GT because . it is designed , developed, and cammed for petrol. an expensive engine has a little more research and deveopment for max performance than a standard everyday run of the mill engine .
2nd point . to get that power out of LPG IT would need a lot of attention, and woulod suck LPG LIKE THERE WAS NO TOMMOROW . . rendering the economy aspect useless.

You are right, your car is not set up for LPG, your valves would hate the stuff. But to the best of my knowledge, the Falcon will remain gas only even when it changes over to Li, and only in the I6. Which means it will receive the current e-gas extras such as hardened valves and all the other goodies to stop it going boom.......

As for extra usage, you will find that liquid injection will get the same economy as gas with the added bonus of a little more power due to the higher octane rating of lpg.

**Fordman1** · 31-05-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

As for extra usage, you will find that liquid injection will get the same economy as gas with the added bonus of a little more power due to the higher octane rating of lpg.

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be getting close to the economy of Petrol with pretty much the same power !!

ratter · 31-05-2009, 08:53 PM

Liquid LPG will not get the same economy as petrol, but it is supposed to be the closet of all forms of LPG,

liquid LPG is the only form of LPG not only to match petrol as far as power is concerned, but actually most cars will make a little more power.
Liquid LPG should not cause any premature valve seat recession as other forms of LPG can do, due to the combustion temps beng lower than petrol rather than higher which is normal for other forms of LPG

Snelens · 31-05-2009, 08:53 PM

So can I convert my, purchased yesterday, e gas ute to LI???

ratter · 31-05-2009, 09:05 PM

no not unless you add wiring and change the computer etc etc, none of your existing gas items will work with liquid

gtfpv · 03-06-2009, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

Liquid LPG will not get the same economy as petrol, but it is supposed to be the closet of all forms of LPG,

liquid LPG is the only form of LPG not only to match petrol as far as power is concerned, but actually most cars will make a little more power.
Liquid LPG should not cause any premature valve seat recession as other forms of LPG can do, due to the combustion temps beng lower than petrol rather than higher which is normal for other forms of LPG

so i can understand and agree about the more power issue .
i would like to know about the charactoristic of the power ban on LPG with the 290 engines . is it still evident .
i also wonder about LPG- BEING SLOWER BURNING , how good is it for high rpm . ?? do you have any info on this ?

blownba · 03-06-2009, 08:32 AM

????
Liquid injection has more power right throught the range from ZERO to hero.
And the "power band" is much more noticeable. The push to redline is far more exciting.
There isn't alot of info yet for the V8 falcons, but I suggest you can have a look at the LS1 site (this is the only time I would recommend looking at "that" site) as there are alot of guys on there that run LS1's, LS2's etc.. on liquid injection and can tell you real world experience. There is one guy that has cracked the 12's with liquid injection and some minor mods.

ratter · 03-06-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

so i can understand and agree about the more power issue .
i would like to know about the charactoristic of the power ban on LPG with the 290 engines . is it still evident .
i also wonder about LPG- BEING SLOWER BURNING , how good is it for high rpm . ?? do you have any info on this ?

The engine behaviour will be the same just with more torque and power.
All higher octane fuels are slower burning, which is more controlable and why they will accept more ignition timing.
My 315 boss is being converted at the momment, although it only has 1200 klms on it, I will doing back to back dyno testing to see the difference that it makes on the new Boss

blownba · 03-06-2009, 11:56 PM

So its yours the boys are working on!!!
They said that they were staying late to work on it tonight.
I have a GT booked in too.
Will be doing that in the next few weeks to so I can tell ya how that goes too.

gtfpv · 04-06-2009, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

The engine behaviour will be the same just with more torque and power.
All higher octane fuels are slower burning, which is more controlable and why they will accept more ignition timing.
My 315 boss is being converted at the momment, although it only has 1200 klms on it, I will doing back to back dyno testing to see the difference that it makes on the new Boss

well keep us posted mate . it'd be nice to read the outcome . what colour ??

ratter · 04-06-2009, 08:21 AM

yes it's mine, this was supposed to happen 6 months ago and through various different reasons it was delayed, which in turn has been a good thing for me as It's now happening on my FG rather than my old BA.

vztrt · 19-06-2009, 06:02 PM

Some more on the supplier

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2575DA0022F0A6

Quote:

Orbital aims to freshen LPG’s image

Next-gen liquid-injection 'will improve performance, cost of going with LPG'

By IAN PORTER 19 June 2009

AUSTRALIA’S Orbital Corporation has set out to transform the image of LPG in the minds of car drivers in a bid to broaden the fuel’s market penetration from the current five per cent.

Orbital recently became a leading player in the field when it acquired the LPG operations of Boral group, because directors could see the potential for gas to replace petrol and diesel as oil becomes scarcer in coming years.

Included in the Boral business is a contract for the supply of the hardware that for Ford's big-selling E-Gas Falcon, which comprises about 20 per cent of Falcon volumes and is popular with fleet operators.

Orbital Gas Products managing director Tony Fitzgerald told a Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) seminar on gaseous fuels in Melbourne this week that the next generation of liquid LPG systems would offer a significant advance.

He said Orbital would adopt sequential liquid injection and sequential vapour systems in place of the traditional fumigator system, which releases gas in the inlet port. The aim is to make using gas as easy as using petrol, with no noticeable change in driving characteristics.

“Sequential systems (which release fuel only when the inlet port is open) will appear in many forms, from the car-makers as original equipment in dedicated or bi-fuel form, for after-OE installation in bi-fuel systems and as retro-fit for Euro III and Euro IV compliance.

“There is a wide range of quality in the LPG market at the moment, and it is important Orbital introduces very high quality products.”

Mr Fitzgerald said he believed the emphasis would swing away from retro-fit market to a situation where most LPG vehicles would be built by the car-makers.

The manufacturers would be able to optimise fuel settings and emissions calibrations, although Mr Fitzgerald said Orbital would strive to achieve standardisation of its own after-market kits.

“We will conduct an extensive calibration program so that there will be no need for installers to make final adjustments. That will also assist in achieving our aim of matching the driveability of a car on unleaded petrol.”

Mr Fitzgerald said Orbital had chosen established partners - Vialle and Continental - to supply proven components for its Australian systems.

“We will not be trying to invest something new,” he said.

“We will be looking to leverage the knowledge of our partners. If then product is to be reliable, we need to take a conservative approach.”

ltd · 19-06-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xy500

lets not even begin discussing territory drivers, thats a whole different kettle of fish.
But did you put enough sweeping generalisations in there?
What you failed to mention about lpg is that it promotes longer ring and bore life as it doesn't wash the bores of oil like petrol. Due to this they also use less oil. the only 'parts of the head' it doesn't lubricate well are the valve seats. Which you'll find unleaded fuel doesn't do especially well either, hence most cars now have hardened seats so this isnt really an issue. Higher combustion chamber temperatures are caused by lpg, but its not a massive increase, a suitable cooling system and alloy heads deal with the temp easily.
Flashlube again is another topic to be discussed on its own, personally i see no point for the stuff, let your valve seats wear out then replace them with hardened parts and never worry about it again.
Lpg can affect your oil, but not if you change it according to suitable intervals, and even if you don't like doing this, buy some 'lpg' engine oil and it contains additives to neutralise corrosive contaminants in the oil

And as someone else already stated, 98 premium can be harder to come across in the country than lpg.
My point here is, you are wrong, flappist does not have a point

hey Walt Kowalski, can't take a joke either?

no one said lpg is the supreme fuel, its just a worthy alternative to petrol, and its cheap, and flappist i will stop using lpg if it becomes more expensive than petrol. Because lpg laws are the biggest pain in the bum, you can't touch anything on the system, but apparently petrol is completely safe and anyone can fiddle with their fuel system. Tell this to the mechanic who 'fixed' my carby leak, only for me to find the engine soaked in fuel more than ready to go boom.

Sensitive much turbo hater? Does someone need a hug?

phillyc · 19-06-2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Some more on the supplier

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2575DA0022F0A6

Beaten me to the punch with plenty of links vztrt! Each time, i think i've got something new...

My only concern with this is how much 'headroom' will this setup / combination have. Ie how much additional power will be able to achieved aftermarket, or will they be right on the limit anyway.

With an N/A model that may not matter so much, but if it is turbo it could be. Then again, that's assuming they will release a turbo E-Gas!

**PepeLePew** · 19-06-2009, 11:26 PM

Hey Ratter,,,,,on the subject of ONLY LI producing the same and even more power than petrol, can I just say I believe turbos are the exception? My back to back runs on my SVI turbo have SLIGHTLY more power on LPG than 98 (4rwkw) and a fatter torque curve.

As for Fords choice, who cares about which side of the LPG fence you sit on. Fact is it'll open up a slice of market share for them for those that want the cost savings but dont like the compromise the EGas engine is...

Like me. LPG has needed a move like this in Aus to legitimize it as a fuel, people will now discover in the showroom WHY its ok to smell the cabbage in the 21st century.

xy500 · 20-06-2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Sensitive much turbo hater? Does someone need a hug?

well if your offering, i'd never say no to a hug

vztrt · 20-06-2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Beaten me to the punch with plenty of links vztrt! Each time, i think i've got something new...

lol, your Welcome!!!

As long as the info gets on here its for the good of informing people. I just people read it and don't waste their time on pointless threads.

XRtowcar · 20-06-2009, 05:38 PM

Just got the BA back after having the LI fitted and the whole system runs just as good as the petrol. No lack of power, no difference at all to drive.
Very happy so far.
Will tow something and see how it runs.