Have Useless "Safety" Features gone too far?

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by TheGreenKugaaah

Reminds me of the dilemma currently facing autonomous vehicles.

The car is driving towards a crowd of people on the road and there is not enough time to stop. Does it A - save the crowd by swerving and crashing at the expense of the driver? B - plough through the crowd knowing the driver will be safe?

In my opinion the focus should be on better educating drivers, better quality driving tests and implementing re-testing every time you renew your licence.

Or C, detect that there is a crowd earlier and apply the brakes earlier avoiding plowing into the crowd or steering the driver into a wall? How often does a crowd just appear out of thin air anyway?

However, if it's a crowd of cyclists in the middle of the road around a blind corner... well it's obvious to me what the car should do

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Our second car is a 1982 Celica. We've owned it for almost exactly 8 years now and drive it everywhere.
No air bags, no stability control, no lane departure warnings, no lane keeping assist, no ABS (which I wouldn't mind...it's great), no radar adaptive cruise control, no tyre pressure monitors...

How the hell have we survived....?

Of course we make up for it by doing silly old fashioned things like putting complete concentration into driving, always looking for ways to improve our driving skills, taking pride in feeling what the car is doing when when just cruising around, keeping our eyes open, and being aware of our surroundings...

Me too , 1990 starlet manual everything ......you have to do this thing called ....wait for it ........
Drive To The Conditions , the biggest condition is everyone can out brake me .....so I have to rely on its computer......my brain

[commodorenutt]

All this talk of ABS and even TPMS.

There's a huge difference between these systems, and what the OP started the topic about.

ABS is a "in case you need help" thing - you don't activate ABS in regular driving, and it only comes in if the driver goes beyond the grip of the tyres when trying to stop. It's up to how hard the driver presses the pedal.

TPMS warns the driver that a tyre has low pressure. It's up to the driver to decide what to do next.


Lane keeping & autonomous driving take over from the driver, removing the need for constant attention. And this is where the problems stem from - we already have enough inattentive drivers on our roads as it is, without encouraging even more.

I have personally witnessed this technology, which is still in its infancy, being "abused" numerous times already, to allow the driver to do other tasks they shouldn't be doing, with their eyes off the road. It can only get worse.

You're not supposed to use a hand-held phone whilst driving. How many abuse that - making calls - holding it to their ear - or the more popular one, put it on speaker and hold it out in front (in clear view), sending texts, an scrolling through their facebook feed. Most commuters would see numerous examples of this every day, on every trip - it's not 1 in 100,000 people doing it, it's more like 1 in 500, or even greater.

Technology being abused at its best, right there, and you think autonomous driver aids won't be abused in the same way, by the same people, in similar numbers?

[ebv8]

my brother was almost killed by lane departure assist in his new Ranger.
country road and a truck was driving about 1m over the white lines so he tried to vere left then the stupid ranger steered him back into the oncoming truck, luckily the truck corrected and there was no accident but he has left that feature disabled from now on

also now there are so many sensors at the front of the car he can't fit a proper bull bar so next roo he hits is probably going to destroy the car (he does 100,000km a year on country roads)

[TheSneakiness]

Look at all the people trying to justify their inability to pay attention to the road.

I've survived 15 years driving without lane departure and lane assist and adaptive cruise control. Any accident I may have been in is a result of my stupidity and frustration.

If I had that tech in a car the first thing I would be doing is trying to figure out how to switch it off. I don't need something flashing in my peripheral every time a car goes past. I would be ****ting myself if lane assist was going to turn me into the side of another vehicle because they are sitting in my lane.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Their are pros and cons to everything, the question is whether the pros outweigh the cons.

ABS probably does encourage overconfidence, but at the end of the day the driver is still learning to drive a car according to its ability. Modern cars do have much shorter stopping distances, and "modern" drivers have simply adapted to that.

Airbags, and all the new restraint features, better crumple zones, etc, are FANTASTIC. Because even the biggest drongo never says to himself "oh stuff it, I can't be bother braking, I'll just crash and let my airbags do the work."

I'm not some old fart bemoaning new-fangled technology. I am extremely grateful that my kids all drive cars with air-bags, abs, and a host of other modern safety features.

What concerns me is that SOME of these features actually encourage stupid behaviour.
It's all very well to say "oh, more safety is always good," but what actually do they do.
WTF is the purpose of lane-keeping assist? Its only reason for existence is so that you can take your hands off the wheel. How is that EVER a good thing?

The problem I have with the lane-departure warning is that for the one in a thousand chance it might actually save your life, (assuming you actually pay attention to the warning) it actively encourages the most dangerous behaviour which is inattention.

Modern cars can certainly be driven at much higher speeds than their ancestors. Many days I could easily drive down my street at 150kph.
Should I be allowed to do that just because my car makes me feel safe?
And stuff the little kid who goes chasing his puppy.

Lane-departure warning might stop you wandering out of your lane, and allow you plenty of spare time to text, select songs, play with your sat-nav, etc. It won't give you ANY flamin help, when a truck wanders into your lane, or somebody runs a red-light, or the kid chases his puppy, or any one of hundreds of other things that an attentive driver would see.

For the same reason, whilst I think the emergency braking features is probably a good one, I believe the distance-keeping cruise-control is not.

The difference again, is between a feature that may save you (or someone else) in an EMERGENCY situation, and a gimmick that encourages laziness and carelessness.

Can you actually provide links, data, info that backs up your claims what I highlighted in Bold in your comment or is it something you just imagine that happens.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

Time to leave the thread, have a good one gents.

Why, because some don’t agree with your point of view.

There is no question that some technology is worth its weight in gold and classic examples are seatbelts, airbags and ABS.

But a big difference between these and some recent others like lane assist are they do not operate 24/7 nor take basic control of a vehicle out of your hands.

There are so many variables where technology such as lane assist could actually end up killing you and ebv8’s brothers circumstance is a classic example where this technology maybe hasn’t been thought out in relation to possible reverse results. It could have killed him.

Then as others have indicated there is the issue that this type of technology can also lend itself to abuse from its intended purpose and to not except this as possible is head in the sand stuff. There is no question that once this type of technology becomes the norm there is unfortunately no doubt many will see it as a means to drive and at the same time do other tasks as my car “drives itself”.

Then we have auto headlights and windscreen wipers and such like. Is that stuff really necessary or just technology for the sake of it. FFS it’s raining and dark and I can’t see MAYBE I should turn the wipers and lights on !!!

Currently, having recently purchased an FG ute with airbags I am now trying to understand how its DSC works so I know what to expect. Google tells me that its best to keep the wheel straight as it will straighten you up etc. But in many cases I may have to intentionally swerve to miss a roo or some other large inert object and the last thing I would want is for it to straighten me up to actually hit it.

Overall, it seems to have good advantages but I want to ascertain if there are any other possible reverse consequences to the extent in some instances it maybe best to turn it off and stay with basic opposite lock skills etc. I need to find a skidpad and experiment

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Express

Tyre Pressure Monitoring Systems (TPMS) have been mandatory on all new passenger vehicles and light trucks manufactured in and imported into the US since 2008.

And this is another feature i think on the whole is good.
At worst, people might get "lazy" about manually checking their tires, but since most people probably don't do it often enough anyway, it wouldn't be any worse. Plus even if you are diligent about such things, you could still run over a small nail and not notice.

[2011G6E]

Good points on the disconnect between active safety items and passive ones.
ABS is passive...it will not "interfere" until you have gone beyond the limits of what you can do or when something unexpected comes up.
The rest? A lot of them are laziness...pure and simple. Take a little notice of what's going on around you and drive your vehicle...don't expect it to do the driving for you.

The other point is that lane departure...as said above...doesn't help when someone crosses into your lane. These systems only work when each and every car on the road has them...and then you have to assume that they will never go wrong, at all.

Interesting toys...that's all they are at best, and just more distractions at worst.

[Express]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

And this is another feature i think on the whole is good.
At worst, people might get "lazy" about manually checking their tires, but since most people probably don't do it often enough anyway, it wouldn't be any worse. Plus even if you are diligent about such things, you could still run over a small nail and not notice.

TPMS has been available as an option for some European vehicles since the 1980’s.

The interesting thing about this technology is legislation was first introduced in the US because of the Firestone recall when 100 deaths from rollovers though the 1990’s was linked to tread separation and in 2000 6.5 million tyres on US cars were recalled and in the rest of the world it was introduced as a means to ensure the rolling pressures were always correct therefore reducing CO2 levels.

1 part safety, 9 parts environmental.


.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by ebv8

my brother was almost killed by lane departure assist in his new Ranger.
country road and a truck was driving about 1m over the white lines so he tried to vere left then the stupid ranger steered him back into the oncoming truck, luckily the truck corrected and there was no accident but he has left that feature disabled from now on

also now there are so many sensors at the front of the car he can't fit a proper bull bar so next roo he hits is probably going to destroy the car (he does 100,000km a year on country roads)

Wow.
I could see this being a real problem with over dimension loads.
What do you do now, pull over and come to a complete stop and wait for the truck to pass?
What happens if you need to overtake and have to move onto the gravel shoulder?
A rear trailer on a road train kicks out and you need to steer off the shoulder to avoid.
All very common scenarios in the Nth West.

I'm pleased to hear this can be disabled, but it seems a trap for unsuspecting players. Certainly the first time I've heard of it.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by ebv8

my brother was almost killed by lane departure assist in his new Ranger.
country road and a truck was driving about 1m over the white lines so he tried to vere left then the stupid ranger steered him back into the oncoming truck, luckily the truck corrected and there was no accident but he has left that feature disabled from now on

also now there are so many sensors at the front of the car he can't fit a proper bull bar so next roo he hits is probably going to destroy the car (he does 100,000km a year on country roads)

Are you saying that the Ranger actually takes over the steering from the driver and over rules them?

It doesn't just give a warning signal?

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

Are you saying that the Ranger actually takes over the steering from the driver and over rules them?

It doesn't just give a warning signal?

Really? I've seen some "interesting" lane markings on the highways out here left over from roadworks...the white line will be faint but recognizable and veer off the road into the bush...which "lane" would it try to steer you down....?

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by trublu

Can you actually provide links, data, info that backs up your claims what I highlighted in Bold in your comment or is it something you just imagine that happens.

It's a well understood problem in aviation circles.
Someone mentioned it in the thread earlier.
The automotive industry appears to be taking no notice and seems destined to make the same mistakes.

Read children of the magenta line, where pilots are being overwhelmed by automation they don't understand. Mistakes are being made that are mind boggling, it's akin to steering off an eight lane freeway and straight into a tree.
That's the state of confusion these highly trained pilots are finding themselves in. They become totally overwhelmed trying to understand what is actually going on and who is in control. Them or HAL.

[prydey]

Wow, i might make some tin foil hats. make myself a fortune in here

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

It's a well understood problem in aviation circles.
Someone mentioned it in the thread earlier.
The automotive industry appears to be taking no notice and seems destined to make the same mistakes.

Read children of the magenta line, where pilots are being overwhelmed by automation they don't understand. Mistakes are being made that are mind boggling, it's akin to steering off an eight lane freeway and straight into a tree.
That's the state of confusion these highly trained pilots are finding themselves in. They become totally overwhelmed trying to understand what is actually going on and who is in control. Them or HAL.

I will be the the first to admit nothing is perfect in this world but I think the vast majority of pros outstrips the cons of safety features, just imagine if technology stagnated 50 years ago, what would be the accident rates these days, think about it.

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

It's a well understood problem in aviation circles.
Someone mentioned it in the thread earlier.
The automotive industry appears to be taking no notice and seems destined to make the same mistakes.

Read children of the magenta line, where pilots are being overwhelmed by automation they don't understand. Mistakes are being made that are mind boggling, it's akin to steering off an eight lane freeway and straight into a tree.
That's the state of confusion these highly trained pilots are finding themselves in. They become totally overwhelmed trying to understand what is actually going on and who is in control. Them or HAL.

Absolutely correct,there is a huge amount to learn from aviation regarding this topic. Integration between the pilot or driver in this instance and machine is a massively complex situation. I don't think many here may be interested but the "children of the magenta" video you mention is a very realistic and grass roots example of the issues trained professionals,not amateurs go through to manage automation correctly. One of the big sells for Airbus is the protections and safety built in with this level of automation. All great until it goes south,and it does. Read some crash reports,its horrific and kick started a massive rethink of how it's all managed.

Technology is great,this stuff will come,no doubt about it,but driver awareness will be critical and dont forget the software updates to fix the glitches,that often have glitches themselves,happens regularly in aviation. It will be interesting to see how that is even managed,I'd say back to the dealer to avoid corrupted of hacked data being downloaded,and if you don't have the lastest mandatory updates,where do you stand ? Interesting times ahead I'd say

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Currently, having recently purchased an FG ute with airbags I am now trying to understand how its DSC works so I know what to expect. Google tells me that its best to keep the wheel straight as it will straighten you up etc. But in many cases I may have to intentionally swerve to miss a roo or some other large inert object and the last thing I would want is for it to straighten me up to actually hit it.

Overall, it seems to have good advantages but I want to ascertain if there are any other possible reverse consequences to the extent in some instances it maybe best to turn it off and stay with basic opposite lock skills etc. I need to find a skidpad and experiment

DSC would have to be the best safety feature ever invented, closely followed or on par with ABS

You don't have to expect anything. Just drive the car as you normally would. If the tail steps out the DSC will assist you in correcting it, nothing more. If you swerve at high speed to miss a roo you'll most likely hit a tree or something much bigger than the roo, but if there's space the DSC will have much more chance of keeping the car on the road than you do regardless of your ability.

Having said that, it's always a good idea to find a skidpan and "experiment"

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

Are you saying that the Ranger actually takes over the steering from the driver and over rules them?

It doesn't just give a warning signal?

Most cars these days will steer you back into the lane. Unless you have a VF Commodore which just beeps at you. I have this feature turned off, same with the collision alert feature. More modern cars will brake for you, the VF just beeps... It's best left turned off. I've had it beep at me and the big red warning symbol projected through the HUD when there was nothing but empty road ahead of me.

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by prydey

Wow, i might make some tin foil hats. make myself a fortune in here

Mate,I'd encourage you to watch that video and hopefully you can take something away from it.
But the way,the video was made in the late nineties I believe,that's how long this issue has been a hot topic,and continues to be to this day.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kERSSRJant0
The second one is an Air France accident with major issues with automation reliance

Even wear your Tin foil hat while your watching it.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Most cars these days will steer you back into the lane. Unless you have a VF Commodore which just beeps at you. I have this feature turned off, same with the collision alert feature. More modern cars will brake for you, the VF just beeps... It's best left turned off. I've had it beep at me and the big red warning symbol projected through the HUD when there was nothing but empty road ahead of me.

I don’t have it in my car but if I did I’d be happy with the beep warning but I wouldn’t want it to go any further and take over the steering unless there was a big brother system that took over the steering of all vehicles within the vicinity to co-ordinate them against colliding.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

DSC would have to be the best safety feature ever invented, closely followed or on par with ABS

You don't have to expect anything. Just drive the car as you normally would. If the tail steps out the DSC will assist you in correcting it, nothing more. If you swerve at high speed to miss a roo you'll most likely hit a tree or something much bigger than the roo, but if there's space the DSC will have much more chance of keeping the car on the road than you do regardless of your ability.

Having said that, it's always a good idea to find a skidpan and "experiment"

Cheers mate, thanks for that and good to know but I will still experiment somewhere .

A few years ago on trip to Qld in my 4wd I came over a small hill just before Broken Hill and the road was blocked by a massive herd of wild goats. Had no definitive braking room distance and I had no need for a months supply of goat chops. Managed to skirt around the gravel outside with a bit of a slide etc and changed the undies later

My understanding of DSC is it’s basically to assist those that may put a rear wheel off on the dirt causing the rear to step out etc, which is all fine and a definite plus. But what I don’t know is what happens if I have to do a deliberate swerve in the FG to avoid something alar as above or a fallen tree etc.

Would Suri say “ Ok wombat I don’t know why you just did that but I have activated DSC to get you back on track but you might also want to brace for impact ”

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by chrisandsharon

Lane assist/departure - yes we need it imo and no I don't think these safety features 'actively encourage drivers to be drongos'. Overall I think the vast majority would still drive responsibly with the safety technology in the background monitoring your position on the road.

The technology may have saved my very good friend, he had a head on with a road train in NW WA.
Seconds before the collision the truck driver said my mate looked like he was looking for something in or around the glovebox when he drifted into the trucks lane. He was an excellent driver and was driving a new HSV GTS. He left a wife and 2 young children behind. Absolute tragedy. No one is perfect, the technology might just save you from yourself or from someone else one day.

Sorry to hear about your friend, especially when family is left to deal with the loss.

When Mustang was first announced for Australia I built a Mustang online and was excited that these features were available. I was disappointed when it wasn't available for us.

It has only happened to me once but I fell asleep in my Territory on the M4; only woke up when the wheels went over the lane markers and right next to me was a truck. He gave me room and I gently steered back to my lane.

I also wanted these features for my wife and our 22 year old daughter as a sort of electronic "me" to help them.

The main bad habits I see are distraction with mobile phones and aggressiveness with no respect or patience for other road users.

I'm all for safety features, despite my defence of the Mustang in the other thread.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

I don’t have it in my car but if I did I’d be happy with the beep warning but I wouldn’t want it to go any further and take over the steering unless there was a big brother system that took over the steering of all vehicles within the vicinity to co-ordinate them against colliding.

Yeah that example of the Ranger that nearly steering into an oncoming semi is scary stuff hey. Surely just a little more muscle would override the system though?

[FPV+fteT3]

You haven't lived until your ESC kicks in and decides to understeer you onto the wrong side of the road because it thinks you are going too fast around that bend. Anyone who enjoys driving with a well set up car knows the bends are the best part of any drive luckily in the Foz you can turn it off.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by trublu

I will be the the first to admit nothing is perfect in this world but I think the vast majority of pros outstrips the cons of safety features, just imagine if technology stagnated 50 years ago, what would be the accident rates these days, think about it.

Thousands have been killed in very preventable accidents.
It's not a one-off, these same accidents are happening again and again.

That tells me we haven't got it right.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by XByoot

Even wear your Tin foil hat while your watching it.

the tin foil hats are for all your kind that think technology is going to create anarchy on the roads.

look around you. how's the lack of technology working out?

humans are lazy and stubborn and becoming increasingly selfish. not sure why you would rather put your faith in that.

[TheInterceptor]

What is the point of the markers on the white lines on highways/freeways? To alert the driver that the car is on the edge of the road. That is old school lane assist that has generally worked. If you fall asleep and you dont notice the vibration the markers put through the car, youre probably going to end up off the road into a barrier or bush in a decent mess.

If you dont notice the car beeping and vibrating at you, and the car keeps you in a lane and will probably end up hitting a car in that lane or running into an intersection into innocent people.

People can be, have been and still are tired enough for this to happen. But everyone screams how good this crap is but they dont think of every scenario.


Over the past month, two people have ended up in the Swan river here in Perth. One was a lady in a Camry with no health complications, decided that the gps was right in telling her there was a road in the drink. She ended up in the water. The sheer stupidity is incredible! Would lane assist keep morons like that alive? Probably maybe. Would it be worth keeping this persons licence? No. Give her a bus pass or a crash course in how to drive and if she fails, the roads have become that much safer.

Today a Patrol 4x4 ended up in the same drink.
Perth drivers are the dumbest i have encountered in any town/city ive been to in Australia so these examples may not be ideal for the rest of Aus but the point is we are allowing drivers to become passengers, to not use their brain and skills if any at all.

If i dont use a calculator at work, i become quicker and better at the math i need to do over time. If i use the calculator, my brain slows down with equations and will rely more on the calculator. The exact same concept applies to driving.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

If i dont use a calculator at work, i become quicker and better at the math i need to do over time. If i use the calculator, my brain slows down with equations and will rely more on the calculator. The exact same concept applies to driving.

i don't get the logic behind this thinking. you claim that people will change the way they drive when they buy a car with safety assist technology?

its irrational to think that way in my opinion. if people are poor drivers, they will be poor drivers, regardless of the car they are in. if they are poor drivers, i would much rather them be in a car that has extra passive and active safety features, for their sake, and for everyone else's.

if you are a good driver, then the safety assist features won't intervene.

people who claim they are good drivers, and then tell stories of how they had to leave the road to avoid a situation that they couldn't see, make me laugh.

humans are not perfect. even the best driver will make a mistake. actually, they'll make many mistakes. car safety has saved more lives than the other way around.

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by prydey

i don't get the logic behind this thinking. you claim that people will change the way they drive when they buy a car with safety assist technology?
.

My point is that people will become more complacant and will rely more on the car driving itself rather than they drive the actual car.

Instead of worrying about 100 different things whilst driving (like checking mirrors etc) there are gadgets that do that for them. They then dont bother with the basics and let the car do its thing.

like most things these days, things are filled with gadgets and gimmicks to make it attractive to the public to make them buy whatever it is that is being flogged. More anything is apparently better.

Edit: I have no doubt technology has saved lives but there is a glass ceiling that is just about being bumped for this kind of thing. Companies are running out of ideas and are expected to add more crap to their cars with each update.

People will always find a way to kill themselves. Thinking that the road toll can be reduced to zero is impossible. Unless all vehicles are banned but even then people will still find a way to die on bicycle or similar.