New Hoon laws about to be released

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Ben73

You are being punished for something you have not even done yet!!!!

I think you are confused, holding a driver's licence is a privledge, not something that if is not granted can be considered a punishment.

With the first years of driving go certain restrictions, which is a condition of PROBATION until time has elapsed that one is ready to have full driving privledges, it is not a period of PUNISHMENT.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by sudszy

I think you are confused, holding a driver's licence is a privledge, not something that if is not granted can be considered a punishment.

With the first years of driving go certain restrictions, which is a condition of PROBATION until time has elapsed that one is ready to have full driving privledges, it is not a period of PUNISHMENT.

so Harold scruby is there any law relating to driving that you don't agree with or do you think everything the government does is right?
You are either that crackpot Harold scruby or you are a oh&s guy who thinks there is no such thing as an accident and that everything can be controlled. You are a very closed minded person.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ray38l

you're example of your stupid mate shows exactly why the new punishment won't work. He obviously has no respect for the law and would either buy another car or find another car to drive. So what would it achieve? Nothing.
But it looks good in the paper for people who seem to hate anyone who still has a bit of life left in them.

i see your point, but do not agree with it entirely. you cannot legislate for some people, as they will always do what they want with little regard to consequences for others

the hoon laws have worked to some degree because using myself as an example i make sure i no longer drop wheelspins in the coupe (i do not do skids unless i got my braking margins wrong). although i have rarely done wheelspins - my tyres are almost 10 years old and look brand new - if a group of young kids saw me and tried to encourage me, i might have dropped a very minor one. now with the hoon laws, i will not take that chance. does that mean i am safer as a result - no, but it sure means that i have changed my habits slightly. and although this does sound limp wristed, i am now setting a better example to any kids watching

the laws are not the thing we should be annoyed about. it is the idiots that have taken fun too far and created a danger to themselves and others. these fools have played right into the governments hands, because now due to their irresponsibility with spending our money, they now have what many see as a legitimate reason to get back the millions they have wasted

however, on a purely selfish level, i am glad some take fun too far - because they pay the voluntary tax and also give me a much easier run on the road. the coppers see my driving style and at worst, my attitude to being pulled over and i generally get let off - that would not happen if others were more considerate and polite

[TheInterceptor]

The fordforums.com.au sticker that im soon to attach to the canopy window will have me driving better than any legislative b******* that govco hurls out.

Why? Because this forum represents enthusiasts.
Why would i go out and give the forum a bad rep?

Simple as that.

Govco makes me laugh

[Franco Cozzo]

If you want a job, then having a drivers license is a nessessity, unless you live in the inner CBD or the suburbs and also work there, then you shouldn't own cars because you have good access to public transport and I reckon you should be taxed accordingly.

Yes, a license is considered a "privledge", but without one I can't get to work as the closest train station is 30km down the road, where I work there is no close public transport within walking distance either so even if I could get to that train station on foot, I still can't get to work with the help of a train/tram/bus.

Yeah, I could take a taxi, but its a $100+ one way trip from home to work, and I earn $80 a day, so thats going a bit backwards.

You'll also have great difficulty in obtaining a job without a drivers license, particularily if they see you live outside of a small radius around the business because it means you can't reliably get to work.

When I drive I take it into accord that without my license, I have no job. But if I was to lose it on some crap technicallity like hoon laws because I come across a cop having a bad day, I wouldn't be happy.

Remember cops are human, so it means they're not perfect, they can have bad days and take out their anger on someone too.

[opto]

IN my opinion, the "HOON" tag has been round since the 1950's as in the movie "The Wild One" made in 1953, this is a Derogatory tag to make those who drive in an unacceptable manner a guilty conscience. As it is, all of the offenses fall into the category of " Misuse of Motor Vehicle", It's just the feelbad bit the pollies want to inflict.

Burnouts, Racing, excessive wheelspin are all based on an opinion from a police officer and this is open to abuse or intimidation, sometimes you have to stand your ground but politely, it is possible, never get agressive or angry. As for defects, you find some officers again are eager or abusive of some of the defects, one that comes to mind is Ride height, this has to be measured in an "Unladen Vehicle" which means "NO EXTRA WEIGHT" in the vehicle. The other side of the coin is a cop who is too lazy to check the defect or lacks knowledge, sends the vehicle to , In Sa's case Regency, where you have to pay to have it cleared. Best thing to do is cough up th e bucks and get engineering compliance done, you spent the cash on the mods, spend the money on compliance. The satisfaction of handing over Engineering paperwork and seeing a cop hand it back to you, dejected that he cant do you, is so empowering.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If you want a job, then having a drivers license is a nessessity, unless you live in the inner CBD or the suburbs and also work there, then you shouldn't own cars because you have good access to public transport and I reckon you should be taxed accordingly.

Yes, a license is considered a "privledge", but without one I can't get to work as the closest train station is 30km down the road, where I work there is no close public transport within walking distance either so even if I could get to that train station on foot, I still can't get to work with the help of a train/tram/bus.

Yeah, I could take a taxi, but its a $100+ one way trip from home to work, and I earn $80 a day, so thats going a bit backwards.

You'll also have great difficulty in obtaining a job without a drivers license, particularily if they see you live outside of a small radius around the business because it means you can't reliably get to work.

When I drive I take it into accord that without my license, I have no job. But if I was to lose it on some crap technicallity like hoon laws because I come across a cop having a bad day, I wouldn't be happy.

Remember cops are human, so it means they're not perfect, they can have bad days and take out their anger on someone too.

So if your job is important to you, so should driving by the rules/maintaining your car properly, remove any contentious mods etc, where is the problem?
Oh, but you want different rules and regs for those that live in woop woop and extra taxes for those that live close to their jobs?

[XCwillo]

****, my new base is about 3 k's into Vic from NSW so that means i gotta get a vic licence, and now the laws are stricter? >_____>

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

When I drive I take it into accord that without my license, I have no job. But if I was to lose it on some crap technicallity like hoon laws because I come across a cop having a bad day, I wouldn't be happy

hey damo, speaking from almost 24 years of experience on the road, if you do not drive too stupidly and are polite to them when they pull you over, then you will not have too many problems. if they see that although being a little immature, you have tried to take steps to make it as safe as possible, they can be very forgiving

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Remember cops are human, so it means they're not perfect, they can have bad days and take out their anger on someone too.

and this is the reason they can be forgiving - and also the reason you should be polite to them. it goes both ways and if you are polite to them without being a d1ckhead, then you will more than likely will have no problems. they do not want you to pay dearly for a moment's indescretion, but they certainly do not want an innocent person or their/your families paying more either. if they had the choice they would choose you lose your car rather than someone lose their life - but they would much rather send you on your way with just a warning, but your attitude will go along way to determining that

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by sudszy

I think you are confused, holding a driver's licence is a privledge, not something that if is not granted can be considered a punishment.

With the first years of driving go certain restrictions, which is a condition of PROBATION until time has elapsed that one is ready to have full driving privledges, it is not a period of PUNISHMENT.

I believe that back in the day there were NO passenger restrictions.

Few morons decided to down a bottle of vodka then drive at 180 in the ran with 7 passenger, then they kill them all.
Government brings in new 'restrictions' forcing them all all new drivers.
Even though the new drivers may of done nothing wrong yet, they are still restricted due to someone elses bad driving.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by sudszy

I think you are confused, holding a driver's licence is a privledge, not something that if is not granted can be considered a punishment.

With the first years of driving go certain restrictions, which is a condition of PROBATION until time has elapsed that one is ready to have full driving privledges, it is not a period of PUNISHMENT.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong ..... again ...... a drivers license is not a privilege at all. It is the right of everyone over the age of 18 to apply and hold one until someone else decides otherwise.

There will always be morons and even the death penalty would not stop them. Moron laws can be as severe as they want ... as long as it appears they are attacking the problem, votes are there and everyone is content ... stuff the fact it's not working and never will.

[mrbaxr6t]

Ken Blocks' fiesta



by the looks of this it seems motorsport celebrities get tarred with the "hoon" tag as well, and there was much bashing about the Police targeting modded cars - I refute this absolutely heres why

I own an xr6 turbo with a monster aluminium intercooler with lots of non blow off valve noise (222) if you seen the car you would have to be both deaf and blind to not know that this car is modified I have had next to zero issues with the Police in regards to my choice of vehicle, this is possibly because they checked the rego covertly to see what the owners' driving record is like BEFORE pulling me over and checking stuff out. When the owners' licence comes back clean they move on to the v6 commo dumped on its guts with the "P" plates and the doof doof. I think its the registered owners' driving record when coupled with a highly modified car that results in them pulling you over and giving you a hard time in the same way I would expect them to heckle a registered sex offender near a primary school. Perhaps if you behaved in your cars and cleaned up your driving records (save the shenanigans for a trackday) then you could drive around in a modified car without the plod pulling you over onsite

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by sudszy

I think you are confused, holding a driver's licence is a privledge, not something that if is not granted can be considered a punishment.

With the first years of driving go certain restrictions, which is a condition of PROBATION until time has elapsed that one is ready to have full driving privledges, it is not a period of PUNISHMENT.

Let me break this down for you.

For every other crime including murder you are innocent until proven guilty so process is:

Arrested
*can be released on bail (for this argument you are)
So you’re a free man bar your bail conditions until your committal hearing
Committal hearing usually keeps your bail enlarged until your trial date
At trial your either guilty/not guilty and then a court date is set for final decision if you are found guilty.

soooo your not punished until your FOUND guilty.

In the case of the "hoon" mantra you have this.

Police believe you’re involved in said anti social behaviour
Car confiscated now for 30 days.
You are treated as if guilty and receive punishment up front with no recourse until your court date... at which time you have already had your punishment and they just say "sorry" if they got it wrong

I’m failing to see how anyone in their right mind can support this BS!

[SB076]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

hey damo, speaking from almost 24 years of experience on the road, if you do not drive too stupidly and are polite to them when they pull you over, then you will not have too many problems. if they see that although being a little immature, you have tried to take steps to make it as safe as possible, they can be very forgiving



and this is the reason they can be forgiving - and also the reason you should be polite to them. it goes both ways and if you are polite to them without being a d1ckhead, then you will more than likely will have no problems. they do not want you to pay dearly for a moment's indescretion, but they certainly do not want an innocent person or their/your families paying more either. if they had the choice they would choose you lose your car rather than someone lose their life - but they would much rather send you on your way with just a warning, but your attitude will go along way to determining that

I agree as my own personal experience with law enforcement officers has been good. However on the flip side of that, I know of someone that recently lost their license (went through a construction zone in the early hours of the morning, didnt see the 40k sign normal limit is 100k's and lost their license for doing 26k's over the limit, travelling at 66k's) The person has never had a speeding fine or accident and has been driving for over 15 years - I would have thought they would have got some leniency (even by taking off 2 k's, but no they got hit with the full force of the law, which I think is harsh) Wonder if she is deemed to be a hoon?

[xisled]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

Let me break this down for you.

For every other crime including murder you are innocent until proven guilty so process is:

Arrested
*can be released on bail (for this argument you are)
So you’re a free man bar your bail conditions until your committal hearing
Committal hearing usually keeps your bail enlarged until your trial date
At trial your either guilty/not guilty and then a court date is set for final decision if you are found guilty.

soooo your not punished until your FOUND guilty.

In the case of the "hoon" mantra you have this.

Police believe you’re involved in said anti social behaviour
Car confiscated now for 30 days.
You are treated as if guilty and receive punishment up front with no recourse until your court date... at which time you have already had your punishment and they just say "sorry" if they got it wrong

I’m failing to see how anyone in their right mind can support this BS!

The Anti Hoons laws do not make you seen yo be guilty before you go to court. When you are charged with a hoon offence, the officer has witnessed a car driving in a dangerous or careless way. So they impound the car, and you go pick it up from the impound lot after paying your money.

Once this has happened you get a summons to go to court to plead your case. Where at court you will be found guilty or not guilty. Get a punishment.

In terms of the car being taken away, this is like paying bail to get out of the lock up, but has a minimum time your car needs to be locked up for. Now you pay your dollars to get the car out of impound and then if found not guilty at court you can apply to get your money back just like, you would apply to get your bail money back.

Officers will not impound your car unless they see you doing something, and what you can also do, if you disagree with the decision the officer has made to impound the car. The officer who wants to impound your car must a notify senior police member, such as an inspector, and if they find no grounds they will release the car.

So IMO you car that has been impounded is like bail. If you are found not guilty you will get your money back. This is how bail works also.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

Let me break this down for you.

For every other crime including murder you are innocent until proven guilty so process is:

Arrested
*can be released on bail (for this argument you are)
So you’re a free man bar your bail conditions until your committal hearing
Committal hearing usually keeps your bail enlarged until your trial date
At trial your either guilty/not guilty and then a court date is set for final decision if you are found guilty.

soooo your not punished until your FOUND guilty.

In the case of the "hoon" mantra you have this.

Police believe you’re involved in said anti social behaviour
Car confiscated now for 30 days.
You are treated as if guilty and receive punishment up front with no recourse until your court date... at which time you have already had your punishment and they just say "sorry" if they got it wrong

I’m failing to see how anyone in their right mind can support this BS!

You do realise that for a "criminal" offence you front a court.... and for most traffic offences you dont because they are not criminal offences

For Most traffic offences, it means you were caught in the act.

Why do you need to waste money going to court over a simple offence like speeding? or doing a burnout?
Now imagine if every single traffic offence had to go to court.
How much public money would it waste?
How long would you need to wait for your turn to hear a simple case?
A couple of years?
How would you feel if you were held in custody for 2yrs waiting for a court hearing because there was 150 000 traffic offences waiting to be heard first?

be realistic

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

You do realise that for a "criminal" offence you front a court.... and for most traffic offences you dont because they are not criminal offences

For Most traffic offences, it means you were caught in the act.

Why do you need to waste money going to court over a simple offence like speeding? or doing a burnout?
Now imagine if every single traffic offence had to go to court.
How much public money would it waste?
How long would you need to wait for your turn to hear a simple case?
A couple of years?
How would you feel if you were held in custody for 2yrs waiting for a court hearing because there was 150 000 traffic offences waiting to be heard first?

be realistic

The courts are already being caught up with the amount of hoon offences going before them at the moment. Last year in October, there was 26 offenders sent to court because they all attended an illegal burnout meet in Campbellfield, and got busted doing burnouts and stuff. The meet happened in march. It took 7 months for the cases to go before the court, and then It took the court over 2 full days, in front of the same judge, to hear all the cases, and most cases ended on the second day, but some cases went longer than the 2 days.

[bafel]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Actually you couldn't be more wrong ..... again ...... a drivers license is not a privilege at all. It is the right of everyone over the age of 18 to apply and hold one until someone else decides otherwise.

Applying for a license is your right, holding that license is a privilege.

For example, a speeding ticket is a fine for abusing the privilege of driving within the rules. It is also for abusing the rights of other road users' safety.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by bafel

Applying for a license is your right, holding that license is a privilege.

For example, a speeding ticket is a fine for abusing the privilege of driving within the rules. It is also for abusing the rights of other road users' safety.

Glad to see someone else undertsands the difference between

As a holder of a licence it gives you the privilege to drive on our wonderful roads and abide by those rules. Break those rules and eventually the privilege is taken away.

[93EB_SXR6]

I see my license as a privelage.
I worked damn hard to get my license (paying for lessons and what-not) and I'm not in any rush to lose it... I do not hoon because of this.
Also I have common sense.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

You do realize that for a "criminal" offence you front a court.... and for most traffic offences you dont because they are not criminal offences

For Most traffic offences, it means you were caught in the act.

Why do you need to waste money going to court over a simple offence like speeding? or doing a burnout?
Now imagine if every single traffic offence had to go to court.
How much public money would it waste?
How long would you need to wait for your turn to hear a simple case?
A couple of years?
How would you feel if you were held in custody for 2yrs waiting for a court hearing because there was 150 000 traffic offences waiting to be heard first?

be realistic

Hoon offenses still end up at the magistrates court in qld (unsure what the legislation is outside of qld) so your going to be fronting a magistrate anyway to have your matter dealt with so why not impound the car as part of the punishment once your matter has been heard and you have a chance to defend yourself, opposed to the punishment on the spot then "reimbursement" later.

Not too many offenses have bail bonds unless its a very serious matter or there is a flight risk etc, so bail with no bond and conditions is the usual but its not a criminal matter so why treat it like one?

so you want the punishment but you don't want the court appearance??

few seem to forget the doctor in WA who lost his car for 30 days through none of his own doing, or the mini dealership who lost their cooper S for 30 days in Melbourne via an over zealous possible buyer.

seems like everyone wants to give up their basic freedoms and leave it the police to say on their own admission if your right/wrong without having to justify to a court what they did was right/wrong enough evidence to convict etc

Flame away, but I'm far from convinced the punishment fits the crime when it comes to hoon laws.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

few seem to forget the doctor in WA who lost his car for 30 days through none of his own doing, or the mini dealership who lost their cooper S for 30 days in Melbourne via an over zealous possible buyer..

Look for the positives, makes everyone a bit more careful on just who they give the keys to for their ride in future.
The doctor, could have always sued the workshop involved for the losses incurred, and if the situation with the cooper S and the car dealer stops dealers just throwing the keys to people and letting them found out what the car will do on public roads then that will be a good thing too.

Originally Posted by UNR8D

seems like everyone wants to give up their basic freedoms and leave it the police to say on their own admission if your right/wrong without having to justify to a court what they did was right/wrong enough evidence to convict etc

Flame away, but I'm far from convinced the punishment fits the crime when it comes to hoon laws.

Yeh, loss of my basic freedoms(what a lot of melodrama!):

I lie awake in bed at night worried that tomorrow could be the day that I get pulled up by the police for the first time in my life and they will stitch me up for half a rev of wheelspin on a wet tram track....... , get a grip.....literally

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Look for the positives, makes everyone a bit more careful on just who they give the keys to for their ride in future.
The doctor, could have always sued the workshop involved for the losses incurred, and if the situation with the cooper S and the car dealer stops dealers just throwing the keys to people and letting them found out what the car will do on public roads then that will be a good thing too.

Yea sure, I loose my vehicle to the state for 30 days due to something my mechanic did at the only Lambo dealership in the state... I'm going to cop a warning for this but WTF is wrong with you??? HOW can you justify this as being in any way right?

Yeh, loss of my basic freedoms(what a lot of melodrama!):

I lie awake in bed at night worried that tomorrow could be the day that I get pulled up by the police for the first time in my life and they will stitch me up for half a rev of wheelspin on a wet tram track....... , get a grip.....literally

It will make my YEAR when you get done for something like that it really will, because its muppits like yourself who want all the rules in the world then wonder why all their rights have been erased, nothing you have ever said on these forums has been a positive contribution, you believe anyone that doesn't just drive from a to b or has an enjoyment in driving (note im not saying skidding up your street) is the spawn of the devil where do you get off?!!!

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by bafel

Applying for a license is your right, holding that license is a privilege.

For example, a speeding ticket is a fine for abusing the privilege of driving within the rules. It is also for abusing the rights of other road users' safety.

Might be semantics but ..... Holding your license is a right until you do something wrong. Then it is removed. Any numpty has the right to get and hold a license and then has the right to drive until the law says otherwise ...... have a look around and you will see them on the roads every minute of the day.

Same as arguing whether freedom is a right or a privilege and the interpretation of both words ........

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

Yea sure, I loose my vehicle to the state for 30 days due to something my mechanic did at the only Lambo dealership in the state..

Firstly, Take the O out of looser and its loser.........to the tune of that old motels hit.....there's a message there........somewhere.

And what is wrong with doctor suing for his loss, just the same as if the morons had crashed it while doing mach 2. or were they trying to find the flat spot he complained about when putting the foot down at 180km/h?

Originally Posted by UNR8D

, nothing you have ever said on these forums has been a positive contribution!!!

Really, I think Ive responded in agreement/positively to the title of the thread, unlike yourself good sir.

[UNR8D]

Getting picky now sudszy. you like always have still failed to respond to anything regarding the original topic...

I stand by the fact that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and put simply the only way I would ever see it as fair punishment would be after a chance to respond to the allegations and at least a right to defend yourself before punishment.

To impound a vehicle for a "skid" under hoon laws the officers must witness sustained loss of traction and smoke before confiscation can occur, I know of at least one instance where this has not been the case, was thrown out of court but didn't stop the person being without a car for 48 hours.

By the way sudzy did you ever read the court verdict regarding the "hoon mechanic"

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/west...-1225955794998

like I said, acquitted yet still punished, and reading between the lines they are a law unto themselfs... damage your property "we don't care" and you have no recourse.

well sorry sudszy but i know you seem to like lubing up and copping it from govco but majority do not and there will come a time where people will stop accepting it, but wozwers like your self keep pushing and pushing until we have no freedom or rights left then what?

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

Getting picky now sudszy. you like always have still failed to respond to anything regarding the original topic... ?

Really, perhaps read: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...1&postcount=24 .....again.

Originally Posted by UNR8D

blah, blah..... self keep pushing and pushing until we have no freedom or rights left then what?

Same old, same old, here's where I replied to someone with similar beliefs:http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...9&postcount=67

[UNR8D]

and I agree with flappist 100%..

do you even read half the trollop you type? and I'm asking honestly because you seem to be oblivious to the fact that not just one or two people on here 'disagree' with you.

Its not the fact you have an opinion, everyone has a right to one, its the fact that you believe your own propaganda and untruth's so much that you come across arrogant and ill informed.

[Fireblade]

I have 2 mates that had their vehicles taken under hoon laws here in SA, both for a week for supposed street racing, the trumped up charges were thrown out but the impound mark still stands on their record, why?? if they weren't guilty and punished, why does the impounding still stand?, hence guilty until proven innocent and a punishment for no crime committed. This also caused undue hardship on one mate who couldn't get to work because his car was in the impound yard for a week, and they damaged his car in the yard, but NO compensation at all.

All said and done, I don't have issues with the police, I have had 2 minor indiscretions in the last 7 years but the law still sucks, and I now won't drive my pride and joy much because of it, no point putting it in the possible firing line because a cop don't like the car.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Might be semantics but ..... Holding your license is a right until you do something wrong. Then it is removed. Any numpty has the right to get and hold a license and then has the right to drive until the law says otherwise ...... have a look around and you will see them on the roads every minute of the day.

Same as arguing whether freedom is a right or a privilege and the interpretation of both words ........

Interpretation? There is a big difference between your rights and a privilege.
When a government takes away your rights its called opression...
Are you opressed when you loose your licence?

You have the right to a fair trial.... or fair wages,,, or a fair education...
Your rights are something you have...and cant be taken away.
You dont apply for them.

Privileges are something that is given to you when you apply for something and these things can be taken away when you break those rules.

When you join a car club.... you dont have rights in a car club you have privileges.