which car/model changed the face of performance for aussie cars?

[Falcon SXR8]

I wouldn't say the boss motor clipped the ls motors wings anyway all it did was put big figures on paper but not on the road I remember when I saw the power figures for the BA xr8 I thought wow its gunna slaughter the commodore but it never did it was too heavy.

Just beacuse one company brings out a donk with more power doesnt mean the game has changed anyway like now FPV has the power stick doesn't mean the game has changed it just means HSV will have to step it up and they most likely will in time.

So after thinking about it again I will retract my xr6 turbo statement and change it to the XR GT without it we wouldn't have any of the performance cars now.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Neale

Its the australian mentality towards performance cars isnt it. Unless its a big RWD Falcon V8 it cant possibly be a performance car.

Dont get me wrong I love V8's but there not the be all end all

back where it really all started in oz in the late 60`s, v8`s where the bees knee`s , turbo`s/superchargers where not a thing on anyones mind for a local car.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Just hope we don't go down the path Like vw has. Tiny little motors but twincharged, both turbo and supercharged.

I like big capacity motors, no replacement for displacement. Our 6 should always be around 4.0 capacity and V8s 5.0+

Don't even talk about a 4 cyl in a falcon or commodore. Don't they remember what happened in the VB commodore? A disaster

Yep like the VW/ Bugatti Veyron...

[jphanna]

well someone else mentioned it before, but so many cars chosen so far were performance based sedans or coupes. for a base model.....

what i think set new standards in terms of acceleration AND top speed, was the VN commodore. here was a base model car which the auto.... did mid 15,s and 210kph. it blew the EA 'multipoint' into the weeds.

[RAPID_BA]

The vn did destroy the ea falcon your right but the ls1 on its release did the same to the equivalent ford products.
.

[jphanna]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

The vn did destroy the ea falcon your right but the ls1 on its release did the same to the equivalent ford products.
.

i remember people writing to wheels magazine, and complaining that the base model commodore new chev V8 had more power, than their previous model HSV with the old holden based block.

[Chopped]

The VN S pak is still quick by today's standards.
Hindsight shows us that it was/is a pretty crap car though.

[cheap]

Which car/model changed the face of performance.

XW GT

Sure the XR and XT's came before it, but with the 351 engine the XW's ran so much harder with effortlessly cruising power, more TQ, long range, comfort and so much more relaxed than the previous 289 and 302 engined GT's.

Rewind back to 1969 there wasn't anything for the price with so much grunt, it was the benchmark for generations of aussie performance cars.

Plus it looked smoking hot!

Yes, I'm bias I've owned a few :-)

[mrghia]

the car that would of changed everything if produced would of been the XF twin turbo AWD. But i think the Brock EA was impressive very quick.

[StrokedXT]

Brock ea was slow

[mrghia]

i remember reading a article say the EA would keep the holden 5L honest it wasn't quicker then the 5L but wasn't much slower they had the same power as the tickford 6.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Say what ???
The P3 was doin 14s 1/4s in 1971
So it took holden how long to get something to top the king
And your put this rubbish on a ford forum
Cmon

Which car changed the face of performance cars
Ya wanna turn the clock back over 40 years for that correct answer

* The e49 6 cylinder charger of the early 70s were doin 14 1/4s as well
Commondore changed the face of performance cars in australia,not ever

Brock Commodores in the 80's.
All ford did then was make hose out taxi's and knit cardigans.

[russellw]

It's clearly a passionate debate but let's get a handle on our understanding of what "changing the face" actually means and it certainly shouldn't be defined by the "Aussie V8" mantra as that slants the argument too far into a very narrow view of what a performance car is.

In the early years (1950-60's), performance cars for Australians were all imported and it was very much a case of choose your poison. Ignoring the exotics (as irrelevant); you could have a V8 powered American import that had an indecent amount of grunt (by the standards of the day); a British import (think Jag, Riley, Austin, Mini etc.) or one of the "funny" European cars like a Fiat, Alfa or (heaven forbid) even a Renault.

Alternatively - as long as you bought a Holden) there was a huge after-market selling all sorts of go faster bits that turned some grey and early red motor equipped Holdens into weapons. Still evil and ill handling (as was the American and Australian way of the era) but some were indecently quick in a straight line.

Much as we might like to opine that the XR GT changed the face, the reality is that it didn't. Yes it added (albeit after Valiant) a V8 engine into an Australian built car but it really still followed the American philosophy of big engine in a big body and who really wanted to go around corners anyway. "Mustang bred" was a good slogan for it - it shared the same lazy engine and indifferent dynamics as it's American cousin.

The XW / XY certainly improved on the performance potential but really didn't advance things much further in the vehicle dynamics sphere while at the same time continuing the American philosophy and becoming increasingly expensive. Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon (by the way) the HK/T/G Monaros were even more agricultural and simply leveraged existing 307/327/350 US engines that fit the same lazy, ill handling pattern that their Ford counterparts did.

There is certainly some argument to support the inclusion of the E38/E49 Chargers and the XU1 Torana. Both of these proved that you didn't need a slow revving lump of iron overhanging the front end to have a performance car (something the rev-heads of the era already knew with their 192 CID, dual carbed, 6 cylinder Holdens) but the Charger probably fails for being another (albeit improved) US design exercise and the XU1 never really made a major impression in terms of sales.

I'm going to hand the honour to the HQ Monaro although almost any 308 V8 equipped model of the time would equally qualify. An all Australian designed V8 engine that was cheap to build and which was produced in massive numbers relative to anything else in this country and which introduced decent performance at an affordable price point. The HQ also made significant gains in handling although it really wasn't until the HZ and RTS that this was properly fulfilled - sadly to coincide with the engine losing it's edge under the weight of ADR27A.

Also worthy of mention is the Datsun 240Z - they (and other variants with this gem of an engine) bought a sporty looking car into the reach of the masses and along with the preceding 1600 was quite an eye-opener in 4 cylinder performance.

You'd have to give an honourable mention to the Maxda RX3 as another car that introduced indecent performance in a small 4 door sedan that was so far removed from it's twin 1300 Capella that it was hard to believe they emanated from the same factory.

Likewise the 60's Lotus Cortinas and the early 70's Capri GT's (both offering decent handling and performance but hardly making selling in sufficient volumes to make an impression on the landscape) merit a mention and there are probably several others from the era that could get into a short list.

Cheers
Russ

[ELGT4me]

Originally Posted by jcxr

Quarter mile figures are not what a performance car is all about.
Handling,braking, etc are more in line with performance than just outright HP
P3 was a pig to drive.

Funny, I remember the Phase 2 as the "pig to drive", the Phase 3 was more "refined". Mind you these cars we never designed to be "grocery getters".There is a mountain near Bathurst, that's where these "pigs" were designed to be driven. For my money, it all started with XR GT, then the 327 Bathurst Monaro.

[RAPID_BA]

It sort of depends in the age of the fellow forum member and era they grew up. It seems we saw some big changes in early 70s, then nothing really happened for 30 years and then the ls1 arrived.

The vt series 1 hsv owners were hoodwinked by the release of the ls1, next years executive was faster and more powerful than the vt series 1 gts.

The ts50 owners were next to get railroaded by the boss series motors.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

It sort of depends in the age of the fellow forum member and era they grew up. It seems we saw some big changes in early 70s, then nothing really happened for 30 years and then the ls1 arrived.

The vt series 1 hsv owners were hoodwinked by the release of the ls1, next years executive was faster and more powerful than the vt series 1 gts.

The ts50 owners were next to get railroaded by the boss series motors.

Honestly do you beleive what you are typing.
So what your saying the LS1 was the best thing in 30 years?
TS50 owners 'railroaded' right.
www.ls1.com is calling you

[Falcon SXR8]

Yea the awsome boss motor railroaded the TS boys thats a laugh

[StrokedXT]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I'd probably discount anything with a V8 as being a "game changer" as the V8 has always been the engine to "naturally" go for in a "performance car". (he says, ducking sharply... ).

The title of the thread would mean a vehicle that changed the "normal" face of performance cars, something that was different, outside the square, a vehicle that wasn't what people would expect to contain such performance, something that would make people suddenly go "Holy crap, look at that thing go! That's completely changed my idea about what a performance car is and re-evaluate my thinking!", then I'd still stand by my choice of the XU1 and the E38/E49 Chargers.

Anyone can just slap a V8 into a platform and call it a "performance car"...it had been done to death by everyone from the big guys to smaller makers over the decades. Trying a different and more daring route by going for a smaller engine and yet still wiping the bum of the V8's at the time is truly "game changing".

Closer to modern times, I'd go for the good old XR6...when they were released, for the first time in the modern era people honestly looked at whether they actually did need a V8 to go quickly and give sparkling performance. The common outlook was that the XR6 was as fast if not faster than the XR8, so why bother spending the extra cash on fuel, rego, and insurance on a V8?

The XU1 only beat the GT because it rained, the charger never reallty achieved anything, and lets not forget the torana was just a 4 cyl puss bucket with a bigger motor - much like you put down the xr for being a car with a v8 thrown in.

And then thats ignoring minis, cortinas etc had been successful on the track long before the falcon or torana or charger so a small car winning something wasnt a new phenomenon at all.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

The XU1 only beat the GT because it rained, the charger never reallty achieved anything, and lets not forget the torana was just a 4 cyl puss bucket with a bigger motor - much like you put down the xr for being a car with a v8 thrown in.

And then thats ignoring minis, cortinas etc had been successful on the track long before the falcon or torana or charger so a small car winning something wasnt a new phenomenon at all.

never confuse a TA/TB torana with an LC/LJ torana.
the 6 potter has the longer chassis.

[fmc351]

VW Beetle. Wait no, it was the Holden Sunbird. Wait wait, the Leyland E38.


Yeah yeah I know, it was P76, but it was only half a car.

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by DJM83

...
www.ls1.com is calling you

I believe he was banned over there.

Personally I think it's to difficult to pick one model that changed it all. As has been mentioned above by Russ and others, most of the cars listed have contributed in some way to "game changing" the Aussie performance scene.

If I had to pick one it would be the XR GT. To me it's the grandaddy of Aussie performance cars. But there have been so many others that could tick the box as well.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

Yea the awsome boss motor railroaded the TS boys thats a laugh

The whole T series v the Boss powered cars is a laugh....you drive what makes you happy....end of story. People that still bicker over this are obviously unsure of themselves either way.

The car I think that put the cat amongst the pigeons was always going to be the Subie WRX. It was an amazing car on it's release and was funnily enough listed in an old article as the getaway from the scene of the crime car of choice for the astute criminal.

[StrokedXT]

Originally Posted by ESP

The whole T series v the Boss powered cars is a laugh....you drive what makes you happy....end of story. People that still bicker over this are obviously unsure of themselves either way.

Ive owned both and im sure the windsor crushed the boss - How does that make me unsure of myself?

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

Ive owned both and im sure the windsor crushed the boss - How does that make me unsure of myself?

Good for you then....whatever
Like I said...you drive what you like.

[StrokedXT]

Sorry was just wondering how you can make such a broad statement is all

[Grippy]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

The ts50 owners were next to get railroaded by the boss series motors.

You sure about that?

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Brock Commodores in the 80's.
All ford did then was make hose out taxi's and knit cardigans.

Im sure IF im not mistaken
Street machine done a few little tests in the 80s
Punting the P3 GTHO against the best brockadores of the 80s
The P3 at then 10 odd years old still held its head high

The XE ESP Fairmont Ghia 351 wasnt nothin to sneeze at
Certainly took it to the SS commo boys

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

It sort of depends in the age of the fellow forum member and era they grew up. It seems we saw some big changes in early 70s, then nothing really happened for 30 years and then the ls1 arrived.

The vt series 1 hsv owners were hoodwinked by the release of the ls1, next years executive was faster and more powerful than the vt series 1 gts.

The ts50 owners were next to get railroaded by the boss series motors.

To ask a question as you have done, i think is all good and well for a general consensus
But ALL you keep saying is
"LS1" blah,blah,blah
"LS1" blah blah blah
"LS1" blah blah blah

Seriously take the blinkers of
A WRX or EVO , or even a cosworth sierra would make mincemeat of an
"LS1" blah blah blah

There isnt really "1" specific car that has changed the face of performance cars in australia
Most of the older aussie muscle cars were done as an improvement of the opposition due to the racing history and the,
"Win on sunday,sell on monday" philosophy
Something,that unfortunately has not been seen for a long time, and probably will never seen again
Look at the stuff they race nowadays in the V8 supercar series
Nothin at all like you can buy from a retailer,only similarity is a badge and some body panels

As for the comment that a newer model was better faster than the previous
Fancy buying a carb 308 holden and getting a touch up by granny in her then new V6 commondore !!!
Its called progress

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

Yea the awsome boss motor railroaded the TS boys thats a laugh

What i mean to say is that in 2002 a 250kw ts50 was about $70k, the next year Ford did the same thing as holden did to vt series 1 owners and released the boss 260 which offered 10kw more, same torque and cost $25k less. Stock for stock sure the Windsor 5.6 was basically line ball with the boss 260 but the xr8 was $25k less and far more tunable.

I'm not a ls1 lover, if I was wouldn't I buy one again? They are not too expensive lol. But what car/motor offered such a change for aussie cars after the 70s GT cars?

Performance went nowhere for the common man for some time. V8s with 5kw mire than the 6 are not performance offerings in my book

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

What i mean to say is that in 2002 a 250kw ts50 was about $70k, the next year Ford did the same thing as holden did to vt series 1 owners and released the boss 260 which offered 10kw more, same torque and cost $25k less. Stock for stock sure the Windsor 5.6 was basically line ball with the boss 260 but the xr8 was $25k less and far more tunable.

I'm not a ls1 lover, if I was wouldn't I buy one again? They are not too expensive lol. But what car/motor offered such a change for aussie cars after the 70s GT cars?

Performance went nowhere for the common man for some time. V8s with 5kw mire than the 6 are not performance offerings in my book

A performance car, has to be able to go around a corner properly in my book. Doesnt make me right.
Power doesnt have all that much to do with performance torque does though, although it helps.