Unions will be the death of Australian car manufacturing

[gtfpv]

flappist that is a good post . are you speaking for the majority here . if so how do you explain the graph on the video . where 80% of people are below what they consider average standard of living . are you saying that 80% of people arent trying to improve or keep thier heads above water , do you think that if the majority of people work less hours and /or take a pay cut than the ones who control everything at the top end will give more back to the community .
i for one an middle class . thats all i want . i dont want to nor am stiving to have an income 380 times higher than i do now . and if i did want that , how many honest ways would i acheive it . versus - luck , kicking others off the platform , or inheritance .
what i'm all about is keeping myself ( in the majority and staying there ) with a fair lifestyle , not sliding backwards and being asked to wear the problems of the wealthy stake holders .
these graphs suggest that if the top end of town dropped their wealth by say 300 % . they would still be at the top end of town , and the bottom 80% would vastly come up .
nothing against self made people or hard work .

[gtfpv]

just to be clear . i believe all the workers for holden will not improve thier life , thier home situation or save holden australia by taking a pay cut . nor will house prices come down or essential service costs accordingly . i cannot agree with anyone who suggests otherwise , and i am trying to show why .
the only thing they will accomplish is a lower living standard while they remain employed untill they start looking for a job elsewhere , or are terminated and have too . either way taking less money will not improve thier lifestyle or save holden . i have tried to show evidence and explain why .

[robertjp]

What is an economy, this is the fundamental that is being overlooked by all companies outsourcing jobs o/seas. Who in an environment where jobs are being lost is going to spend buying goods and services when they hear doom and gloom. Australian and the rest of the world is rapidly approaching a tipping point where the good times are over. Eg China's debt bubble, slowdown in raw materials exported, property bubbles etc.

This maybe the wrong thread for this, but how will saving $30 million in labour costs stop the losses at GMH, something doesn't smell right.

[Franco Cozzo]

I'm in the auto "manufacturing" field in Victoria, but more "specialised" if you will, emergency vehicles, we fit em out for the Government and other smaller private companies.

I'm planning on getting out next year hopefully, I'm currently skilling up to make a move into another industry, preferably OHS&E or industrial relations field.

We're on a sinking ship, the worst thing you can do is just sit here and wait for it to happen, its going to be horrible for the old boys of the industry.

Nothing is stopping people from swinging their Mercedes Sprinter past another country to be fitted out after it gets on the boat from Germany before it lands in Melbourne.

Victoria Police bought a vehicle off Lenco Armored Vehicles in the USA.

I'm a union member (AMWU) but in a workplace without an EBA.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

lets please watch this video . with the phrase

" UNIONS WILL BE THE DEATH OF AUSTRALIAN CAR MANUFACTURING " in mind .THE CORPERATES have asked workers to help the company out and take a pay cut . now lets think about what people think about who bleeds off societies money . and we will see UNIONS arent acheiving a fair and equitable system that they want . far far from it . and most people bag themselves and believe thAT THE AVERAGE WORKER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOWN FALL OF THE SYSTEM .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKK...layer_embedded

Mmmm... It's quite an unjust and disgusting world we live in.

[wrongwaynorris]

Typical bloody minded union attitude . We'll work ourselves out of a job then whinge we dont have a job and blame everyone but ourselves . Sadly most union rank and file members still don't realise that their executive have ZERO interest in their welfare , conditions and pay . They use the union movement as a stalking horse to get into politics . Example , Bob Hawke , Simon Crean , Martin Ferguson , Greg Combet , Doug Cameron , Bob Carr , Peter Beattie , Stephen Conroy , Michael Costa , John Della Bosca , Michael Egan , Laurie Ferguson , Jenny George , John Hatzistergos , Morris Iemma , Paul Lennon , Kate Lundy , Bob McMullen , Reba Meagher , Belinda Neal , Nicola Roxon , Bill Shorten , Lindsay Tanner , Craig Thomson , Joe Tripodi , Penny Wong and sadly Juliar Gillard . And this is just a small sample of what is a HUGE list . Ever wonder why Rudd got rolled ??????????? , and it is no accident why by far the best Labour Prime minister Paul Keating had no union background .

[Franco Cozzo]

Meh, all politicians are scumbags, regardless of union affiliations or not.

[KIWI-1]

wrongwaynorris forgot to mention that those who don't get into politics are lining their own pockets at union members expense. Just look at the HSU.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

fte50
Do you and your union colleagues regard the car makers switch to sourcing offshore component suppliers as "Un-Australian"?
Have you black-listed imported components because it is "Un-Australian"?

Not sure of ur tone here, so lets for now focus on my view & forget my 'union colleagues' (being the whole floor membership making a union).

I consider myself a nationalist, so YES i do consider it Un-Australian sourcing foreign supplies when our own suppliers are begging for a go. I also think it highly unethical promoting a brand /product as Australian, yet doing everything in power to only meet the minimum requirement.
Fair enough if Australia don't have the expertise or resources etc, but its not about that -its purely about cost and more often than not at the detriment of quality.

There is no such thing as blacklisting for the Un-Australian debate as minimum local content laws no longer apply in the way they did. As unions though, we always have a preferred supplier list and that involved criteria to ensure the workers of those firms were treated fairly, paid fairly and had decent humane standards & conditions, etc etc.

But what gets me angry is the fact our nations govts, the western world and every other developed country scream at Int'l conventions about 3rd world country labour standards, sweatshops etc yet allow the multinationals to continually exploit them and then go on to import these very products onto our shores under their umbrella - without penalties of any kind.

Again, if they had 'total freedom' , who knows how low they would go in the quest for increased profits.

Just another example of how the union helps people

[OwnTheRoad]

Unions prevent the little guy with poor education from being steam rolled by his boss into employment contracts that are unfair .FLIPSIDE they have lost touch with reality and constantly abuse their perceived position of power by demanding unrealistic and unsustainable working conditions .The De-sal plant in Wonthaggi was a joke , trades men getting $200k a year doing SFA , how do i know this ? They came back bragging about it and then expected to be employed by their former bosses who they ditched in a blink just for the sake of Union provided greeeeeed.Yes im a Tradie an Electrician so before you shoot me just think about the financial legacy we now have to wear from the De-sal plant......

[SirHenry]

Just my 2 cents worth on the topic, Unions aren't crippling the aussie car industry its free trade agreements. You simply cannot compete with "Aussie Bob" making a car earning $200.00 a week and "Insert Overseas car maker employee name here" earning $20.00.

For the Aussie car industry to compete it needs tariffs put on imported vehicles.

[Jason[98.EL]]

the company I work for atm had major issues with union and eba back during the gfc

the union decided to picket the front door when the ceo was visiting from the states and caused major issues for him entering the building ( was there to tell them he was going to invest in new machinery but couldnt do that if they got the 6% pay rise over 2 yrs ) due to what the union did he then proceeded to tell them that he was now closing the factory.

It closed 2 months later

it re opened 3 yrs ago with all floor staff on casual and no union ( was meant to be a 6-12 month opening ) we have now been open for the 3 yrs and look like we are going to be there for along time they just purchased the building back and we are getting new machines as well as 60% of us will be going on full time in the next 2-4 months and we will be only loosing $1.50 -$2.50 an hour from casual rates depending on what machines you can run and what other qualls you have ( for me I can run the 3 machines in finishing as well as just about to do oh&s and first aid courses ) so I will be on the lesser loses if not staying on the same rate ( due to the extra qualls )

All that was negotiated without union intervention and we will not be allowing the union onto the shop floor workers choice on that

Jason

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

Having worked at Holden in maintenance for 21yrs, I was also a union rep for 10yrs, and part of the bargaining committee for the negotiations of Holden's last 3 EBAs prior to its current one. My roles were plenty and varied.

So at no time in those 21 years did the Union take action about imported vs. local components? Mateship? "Un-Australian."

[gtfpv]

i'm glad this sort of thing doesnt happen in australia . ohh wait

we australians wouldnt cop pay cuts and condition cuts would we ? if a union doesnt step in . can someone tell me who will ?? surely the top end of town wouldnt ask us to compete with what happens overseas would they now .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=XHSeSnAhI_8

[Franco Cozzo]

If the Holden workers agreed on taking a pay cut, and the company announces they're closing down anyway a year later.

Would their redundancy payout be less because it would be based on their new lower wage?

It might be better for them to not take the pay cut and go out then and there with a higher redundancy payout rather than the company closes down anyway in the near future and they get less payout.

One way or another, I guess they will close, pay cut or no pay cut.

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If the Holden workers agreed on taking a pay cut, and the company announces they're closing down anyway a year later.

Would their redundancy payout be less because it would be based on their new lower wage?

It might be better for them to not take the pay cut and go out then and there with a higher redundancy payout rather than the company closes down anyway in the near future and they get less payout.

One way or another, I guess they will close, pay cut or no pay cut.

Time for some union organisers to earn their keep.
Maybe time to look at lower wages for now with a clause for a higher rate if they shut shop within say 5yrs. Renegotiate then.
It will show the workers are committed and force Holden into showing their hand.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

It might be better for them to not take the pay cut and go out then and there with a higher redundancy payout rather than the company closes down anyway in the near future and they get less payout.

Not if they are getting 4 weeks pay for every 1 years service with a max of 90 weeks pay!
Joe Public gets 4 weeks + 2 weeks for every year with a maximum of 12 weeks with > 10 years service.

[mik]

i've always thought there is a place for unions, and for those that wish to join them, i've been a union member in plenty of jobs, in some it was mandatory or get another job, these days with government sticking their nose in to every part of our over regulated lives they are probably less relevant, to be honest i think they have way to much power and should not be involved in poitics, too many with alterior motives instead of just helping the little guy.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Not if they are getting 4 weeks pay for every 1 years service with a max of 90 weeks pay!
Joe Public gets 4 weeks + 2 weeks for every year with a maximum of 12 weeks with > 10 years service.

The guys on the upper end of the scale would probably notice a drop if it went from $800/week to $650/week when it came to a payout for example.

[350125GO]

Originally Posted by flappist

snip

Australia is not a meritocracy. The rich do not become so solely based on merit.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

So at no time in those 21 years did the Union take action about imported vs. local components? Mateship? "Un-Australian."

Whats your point champ ??

Action comes in many forms and applied in many ways !

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The guys on the upper end of the scale would probably notice a drop if it went from $800/week to $650/week when it came to a payout for example.

Given that those on this forum are not prepared to divulge the FULL remuneration package, the FULL redundancy package, nor the FULL retirement package we are only guessing.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

So at no time in those 21 years did the Union take action about imported vs. local components? Mateship? "Un-Australian."

It's a Union's responsibility to push for Australian components as much as it is you or I responsibility to buy a brand spanking new Australian vehicle.

fte50 smacked the nail on the head with a shovel by pointing out the hypocrisy of our Government in relation to working conditions in 3rd world countries, yet allowing our corporates to exploit those conditions.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Given that those on this forum are not prepared to divulge the FULL remuneration package, the FULL redundancy package, nor the FULL retirement package we are only guessing.

Not prepared to, or not allowed?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Not if they are getting 4 weeks pay for every 1 years service with a max of 90 weeks pay!
Joe Public gets 4 weeks + 2 weeks for every year with a maximum of 12 weeks with > 10 years service.

Ahhhh, the same 'Un -Australian' Joe public Union basher - whinges about unions, then continues to whinge more when their members benefits equate to more than those whom choose to not belong.......hypocrite.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Lotte

Not prepared to, or not allowed?

Probably doesn't matter which. Pretending they get $x per hour when they get $x + this + that; and they no longer get this or that; then expecting us to believe it is bull....

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

So at no time in those 21 years did the Union take action about imported vs. local components? Mateship? "Un-Australian."

Originally Posted by fte50

Ahhhh, the same 'Un -Australian' Joe public Union basher - whinges about unions, then continues to whinge more when their members benefits equate to more than those whom choose to not belong.......hypocrite.

I take it that is a "No, we didn't take action about imported components; just looked after ourselves - mate."

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Probably doesn't matter which. Pretending they get $x per hour when they get $x + this + that; and they no longer get this or that; then expecting us to believe it is bull....

It actually does. And your mistrust issues are your own.

[Sep 97 EL XR8]

I agree with the notion of unions, they have achieve a lot, ie 36hour week, long service leave, etc.

I work in construction, and have a problem with getting people to wokr over time.

The unions have done a too good a job, and negotiated great hourly rates. The only problem is no one wants to do overtime, and productivity has decreased.

More and more I am seeking to get items made in China, to try and reduce costs. I have a fundamental problem with this, as I know this will affect somebody.

But I have no choice (other than lose my job because I cannot make money) , every one is expecting the cheapest product.

Its the same with the automotive industry, costs are increasing, they need to be brought down, but no one thinks about the long term, only now.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

I take it that is a "No, we didn't take action about imported components; just looked after ourselves - mate."

Assume nothing if u weren't there 'mate'.