NSW P-Plater restrictions - part two.

[PULLY6]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Banning P platers from RWD or anything more than N/A 4cyl FWD until they did a driving course would have been a much better idea and might have actually accomplished something.

Thats a ridiculous solution. Many P Platers drive their parent's cars with no trouble at all, be it a Ford Festiva or a BA XR8, or even a Mitsubishi Pajero. The fact is, there's the minority making it bad for the majority; the same situation with ANY issue in todays society. I say ban the repeat offenders! (considering I'm one of them, I think that's a pretty objective point of view)

[Yaw]

I have an idea.
Lets give it 1 year from the inception of the NSW banned car list and then look at the stats. I am betting it will have a not so dramatic affect in the first 3 years. After that lets see the true stats. I say 3 years because during this time is how long it will take so the changes are mandatory for everyone, not just those gaining thier licence after July 2005. By July 2007 that means will be mandatory for this to work, then a year to gather the "true" Stats.
I am betting 2008 stats on young driver deaths (not accicednts but DEATHS)
will have subsided greatly. I applaude the new laws and can not wait for every state to follow suit.

Originally Posted by Yaw

I have an idea.
Lets give it 1 year from the inception of the NSW banned car list and then look at the stats. I am betting it will have a not so dramatic affect in the first 3 years. After that lets see the true stats. I say 3 years because during this time is how long it will take so the changes are mandatory for everyone, not just those gaining thier licence after July 2005. By July 2007 that means will be mandatory for this to work, then a year to gather the "true" Stats.
I am betting 2008 stats on young driver deaths (not accicednts but DEATHS)
will have subsided greatly. I applaude the new laws and can not wait for every state to follow suit.

If its so great why does the only state with the restrictions at the moment usually have the worst road toll.

[Axle-F]

Any restrictions placed on P-Platers have to be good.

I've been driving 2 1/2 hours a day for the last 3 months to work & back and easily the worst group on the road are P-platers. Constantly getting cut off by them is one thing, but today i couldnt beleive this one idiot:

I was going down the M4 at 120 km/h in the fast lane - already 10 k's over the limit - and some moronic P-plater decided the best way to get me to move was a good ol' tailgating. I was always going to let him through at the first opportunity but I'm not risking my life/license so he can get where he's going 1 minute early. If i had popped a tyre of something unforseen this guy would have easily become involved instantly - he couldnt have been more than 2 metres from my car...at 120km/h!!

That isnt an isolated even either - happens all the time with those idiots.

One time i saw the greatest thing ever though - a P-plater (in a badly hotted car) crusing down the highway at 130~140km/h being followed by a non descript maroon ford. What made me laugh hard was that i'd seen the driver of that ford about 10 minutes eariler at a rest stop, in FULL POLICE UNIFORM! 5 minutes later of course i saw the p-plater pulled over losing his license (dbl demerit weekend). Gold :the_finge

[MITCHAY]

Maybe a better thing to do would be to have a sorta incentive to purchase a car with more safety features.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Axle-F

I was going down the M4 at 120 km/h in the fast lane - already 10 k's over the limit

and i guess you have every right to call him/her moronic when your already doing the wrong thing...

Originally Posted by Heeno

and i guess you have every right to call him/her moronic when your already doing the wrong thing...

let's see... someone doing less than 10% over the speed limit, or a P plater doing at least 20% over their limit.... which one is more moronic.....

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Uhh a wider tyre is better on an uneven surface due to a smaller % of the contact patch being affected by an irregularity in the road and it only reduces resistance to aquaplaning in standing water not performance on wet roads.

you have obviously never driven on wet roads then, have you. Try it sometime with narrow tyres, and then with wider tyres...




Red.... unfortunately P platers are the same now as years ago (worse if anything) they think they know it all, and sooner rather than later many of them will learn first hand what happens when metal meets metal. Hopefully they get to walk away in one piece...

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by devil cv8

let's see... someone doing less than 10% over the speed limit, or a P plater doing at least 20% over their limit.... which one is more moronic.....


you have obviously never driven on wet roads then, have you. Try it sometime with narrow tyres, and then with wider tyres...




Red.... unfortunately P platers are the same now as years ago (worse if anything) they think they know it all, and sooner rather than later many of them will learn first hand what happens when metal meets metal. Hopefully they get to walk away in one piece...

Your agreeing all the time is getting way spooky. :evil_laug But your assesment is spot on. Obviously our other respondant has never actually played with tyre widths etc.. Wet weather handling magazine style..

[Biggoggs]

Uhh a wider tyre is better on an uneven surface due to a smaller % of the contact patch being affected by an irregularity in the road and it only reduces resistance to aquaplaning in standing water not performance on wet roads.

It's not so much the width of the tyre that makes it bad in the wet, its how effective the tyre can move water out of the way. A bigger contact patch is better, but a bigger tyre also means more water to move a larger distance.

Red.... unfortunately P platers are the same now as years ago (worse if anything) they think they know it all, and sooner rather than later many of them will learn first hand what happens when metal meets metal. Hopefully they get to walk away in one piece...

Perhaps we should enforce better parenting laws, then. So, 30yrs ago in the muscle car era, were young drivers dying on every corner?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

It's not so much the width of the tyre that makes it bad in the wet, its how effective the tyre can move water out of the way. A bigger contact patch is better, but a bigger tyre also means more water to move a larger distance.


Perhaps we should enforce better parenting laws, then. So, 30yrs ago in the muscle car era, were young drivers dying on every corner?

I did say I went to a few too many funerals didn't I.

Then, like now, ignorance and stupidity were major killers. I just cant understand with the better education information available now why many dont get the message. Darwins theory at work no doubt.

Originally Posted by devil cv8

you have obviously never driven on wet roads then, have you. Try it sometime with narrow tyres, and then with wider tyres...

Yeah I have never driven on wet roads... _
The wider tyres are only at a disadvantage if there is standing water on the road and the tread is unable to displace it fast enough, on a wet road with proper drainage the wider one is still going to be better.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I did say I went to a few too many funerals didn't I.

Then, like now, ignorance and stupidity were major killers. I just cant understand with the better education information available now why many dont get the message. Darwins theory at work no doubt.

What better education? The entire drivers license test is based around knowledge of road rules and has practically no information about car control.

Originally Posted by lizardmech

The wider tyres are only at a disadvantage if there is standing water on the road and the tread is unable to displace it fast enough, on a wet road with proper drainage the wider one is still going to be better.

what about water running across a road.. what about a heavy downpour. As I said, you obviously don't have the experience to make correct judgement calls. Have the best wet weather tyres money can buy, and aquaplaning is still possible. Anyone remember phillip island a few years back, wet race and one of the garry rogers commodores driving on the main straight aquaplaned straight off the circuit.. no standing water, no braking for a corner, just that the tyres couldn't get rid of all the water at the speeds that were being done. So if even a race car driver can have that happen, what makes someone with their road experience measured in months or single digit years a better judge of what tyres can do what.

[MITCHAY]

Im pretty sure the accident your referring to was caused by a nudge rather than being able to get rid of water. Then again i could be wrong it was a while back.

[Biggoggs]

Hey, easy up on the character assasination here :/

He never said aquaplaning was impossible, but bigger tyres don't always mean loss of control. The fact that many big tyres are semi-slicks doesn't help the argument either.

So if even a race car driver can have that happen, what makes someone with their road experience measured in months or single digit years a better judge of what tyres can do what.

lol ok, so how come my grandmother knows less than I do about toe-in/out, camber, scrub radius, pressure & temperature, etc? :P

Originally Posted by devil cv8

what about water running across a road.. what about a heavy downpour. As I said, you obviously don't have the experience to make correct judgement calls. Have the best wet weather tyres money can buy, and aquaplaning is still possible. Anyone remember phillip island a few years back, wet race and one of the garry rogers commodores driving on the main straight aquaplaned straight off the circuit.. no standing water, no braking for a corner, just that the tyres couldn't get rid of all the water at the speeds that were being done. So if even a race car driver can have that happen, what makes someone with their road experience measured in months or single digit years a better judge of what tyres can do what.

If there was no standing water on the track what exactly did the car aquaplane on?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

What better education? The entire drivers license test is based around knowledge of road rules and has practically no information about car control.

Bacause the license testing is nothing to do with car control apart from some rudimentary basics. Its about traffic regulations and basic road safety. Thats why we have a provisional system, it lets those willing to learn out on the highways and byways to gain experience. It has nothing to do with some numbnuts in a third hand VK trying to perfect the approach angle to the roundabout at the end of his street, or drive a rooted 253 at 11/10ths.

Provisional is a time to gain road skills, the plates signify you are only beginning to learn this. Road skills are the ability to read the situation, to predict what is going to happen and to have an emergency strategy for every situation.

Car craft is not the problem, different people gain different level and some have gained excellent car control skill long before they were licensed. Car craft is the interesting part, we love our cars and want to be our best at driving them, its something you never stop learning if you want to learn, that is.

Now here's the rub kiddos, having car craft doesn't make you a good driver. In fact with car craft alone and an impatient manner and unfounded belief in your own infalibilty, you become an absolute menace on the roads.

There are some excellent drivers around with car craft skill that peak out out at a reverse park or a three point, but they are still excellent driver because the drive within the limits of themselves their cars and the road conditions. Now you may find all that boring as bat dropping but its a fact.
What is a good driver? Its a driver that can go about there business without hitting things, without causing accidents, without menaceing all the other poor sods on the same bit of road. Sounds simple enough, it isn't its a lot to think about.

Now in cold hard reality most new drivers will have had little or now previous experience, they'll have done a few lessons in mums wagon or the local dual control vectra. Even those lucky enough to learn driving skills through carts or off road vehicles etc will have had no experience in road traffic situations at all.

The majority of new P-Plate drivers, begin with absolute minimal road skills and similar levels of car control. And armed with this, feel equipped to begin the next phase of learning in some of the most powerful cars on our roads. As If!

Stupid piece of half assed legislation it is, but I'll back any moves to keep inexperienced drivers from more powerful cars, something our insurance industy has been doing for some time.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Bacause the license testing is nothing to do with car control apart from some rudimentary basics. Its about traffic regulations and basic road safety. Thats why we have a provisional system, it lets those willing to learn out on the highways and byways to gain experience. It has nothing to do with some numbnuts in a third hand VK trying to perfect the approach angle to the roundabout at the end of his street, or drive a rooted 253 at 11/10ths.

Provisional is a time to gain road skills, the plates signify you are only beginning to learn this. Road skills are the ability to read the situation, to predict what is going to happen and to have an emergency strategy for every situation.

Car craft is not the problem, different people gain different level and some have gained excellent car control skill long before they were licensed. Car craft is the interesting part, we love our cars and want to be our best at driving them, its something you never stop learning if you want to learn, that is.

Now here's the rub kiddos, having car craft doesn't make you a good driver. In fact with car craft alone and an impatient manner and unfounded belief in your own infalibilty, you become an absolute menace on the roads.

There are some excellent drivers around with car craft skill that peak out out at a reverse park or a three point, but they are still excellent driver because the drive within the limits of themselves their cars and the road conditions. Now you may find all that boring as bat dropping but its a fact.
What is a good driver? Its a driver that can go about there business without hitting things, without causing accidents, without menaceing all the other poor sods on the same bit of road. Sounds simple enough, it isn't its a lot to think about.

Now in cold hard reality most new drivers will have had little or now previous experience, they'll have done a few lessons in mums wagon or the local dual control vectra. Even those lucky enough to learn driving skills through carts or off road vehicles etc will have had no experience in road traffic situations at all.

The majority of new P-Plate drivers, begin with absolute minimal road skills and similar levels of car control. And armed with this, feel equipped to begin the next phase of learning in some of the most powerful cars on our roads. As If!

Stupid piece of half assed legislation it is, but I'll back any moves to keep inexperienced drivers from more powerful cars, something our insurance industy has been doing for some time.

The problem is when those "good" drivers with poor car handling skills encounter something caused by someone else or something very unpredictable. The cheaper performance cars the P platers with performance cars usually drive are hardly "some of the most powerful cars on our roads" Everytime a useless half assed law like this is passed it delays them from getting around to making a proper one that actually improves safety.

[MITCHAY]

It seems to me anything with a powerful engine is classified as a performance vehicle. A base commodore or falcon wit a V8 in it hardly rates IMO. It is half assed. At least the government wont be getting money out of defecting cars with parts on them that can be sold over the counter which they also get tax from.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

It seems to me anything with a powerful engine is classified as a performance vehicle. A base commodore or falcon wit a V8 in it hardly rates IMO. It is half assed. At least the government wont be getting money out of defecting cars with parts on them that can be sold over the counter which they also get tax from.

Its not always powerful cars either. A base EB-EL V8 has all of 165kW. That's not powerful. They're not fast. They run 16's. They get stomped by BA XTs (legal). And EB-BA XR6s (legal). Doesn't make sense.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

It seems to me anything with a powerful engine is classified as a performance vehicle. A base commodore or falcon wit a V8 in it hardly rates IMO. It is half assed. At least the government wont be getting money out of defecting cars with parts on them that can be sold over the counter which they also get tax from.

i think the new law is mostly refering to all those rice burner cars, skylines, supras, 200sx etc etc... not so much the ford/holden 6's, v8's i can understand, i can handle them well (one of the first cars i learnt to drive was an ol kingswood v8) but i remember first jumpin in one and its not the sort of thing you would give to someone on their p's, even i can admit most v8's scare the outta me(VU SS...WOW), thats why i drive a 6, i'd be to tempted otherwise to do stupid sh!t.

I really think parents also need to step in a bit and not let their kids buy V8's or performance turbo cars etc etc, honestly what would you buy, a dank 4 cyl or a half decent V6, V8 or turbo'd car.

just some more of my 2c :

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Its not always powerful cars either. A base EB-EL V8 has all of 165kW. That's not powerful. They're not fast. They run 16's. They get stomped by BA XTs (legal). And EB-BA XR6s (legal). Doesn't make sense.

These comparos are useless, there will always be exceptions, but then you could also argue that although more powerful the XT has much better levels of safety protection, no live axle etc.

The PVL is a wide-net sweep, it may not be perfect but any errors or emissions in it do not change the definate need to keep inexperienced drivers out of more powerful cars!

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

The problem is when those "good" drivers with poor car handling skills encounter something caused by someone else or something very unpredictable. The cheaper performance cars the P platers with performance cars usually drive are hardly "some of the most powerful cars on our roads" Everytime a useless half assed law like this is passed it delays them from getting around to making a proper one that actually improves safety.

I'm sure your trying to say something her but thus far even our most powerful decoders have been uble to make anything of this lot.

Ok I'll give you my law Immeditetly restict all provisional drivers to a maximum of 1 passenger under 25yrs of age, excluding immediate family members carrying appropriate ID. Enything outside of this a finable offence. Simple to implement, easy to enforce, and I guarantee it would save a lot of lives.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

restict all provisional drivers to a maximum of 1 passenger under 25yrs of age, excluding immediate family members carrying appropriate ID. [/B] Enything outside of this a finable offence. Simple to implement, easy to enforce, and I guarantee it would safe a lot of lives.

well to that i can say, go and get screwed, i ride moto's as well as cars, and with what you said, i wouldn't be able to go on road trips with my mates who also ride, why take 3 or 4 cars when you can take one not every one has a trailer for their car and with 4 bikes on the back me + 3 mates and gf thats a full car which means none of us could go! get over yourself

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

well to that i can say, go and get screwed, i ride moto's as well as cars, and with what you said, i wouldn't be able to go on road trips with my mates who also ride, why take 3 or 4 cars when you can take one not every one has a trailer for their car and with 4 bikes on the back me + 3 mates and gf thats a full car which means none of us could go! get over yourself

LOL! You go get emm Brockkie, ah, the wisdom of youth!! :

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

LOL! You go get emm Brockkie, ah, the wisdom of youth!! :

seriously whats your problem with young people, i think your just another one of those dodgee drivers everyone gives sh!t to and more then likely its the young people giving it to you...

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

Perhaps we should enforce better parenting laws, then. So, 30yrs ago in the muscle car era, were young drivers dying on every corner?

I am pretty sure there was a big outcry 30 years ago with the muscle car era.
It may not have been as big a problem back then as it is now as back then it was harder for a young person to obtain finance for a beaut muscle car hence there were less of them in the hands of younger drivers. These days finance companies are only too happy to allow a 17 year old P-plater buy $30-50,000 car knowing full well they will probably write it off. But Finance do not care, thats why they stipulate financed cars must be comprehensivly insured to get the finance paid out in that event, in a lot of cases the finacne company prefers it to happen, they get an early pay out with intrest. What a great way to make money.

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Ok I'll give you my law Immeditetly restict all provisional drivers to a maximum of 1 passenger under 25yrs of age, excluding immediate family members carrying appropriate ID. Enything outside of this a finable offence. Simple to implement, easy to enforce, and I guarantee it would safe a lot of lives.

Here, here.
Well said, can't agree more

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

seriously whats your problem with young people, i think your just another one of those dodgee drivers everyone gives sh!t to and more then likely its the young people giving it to you...

I have no problem with the young, its the know-it-alls, the ignorant, and the unthinking, that I dispise. Good thing we are keeping them out of high powered vehicles. :

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I'm sure your trying to say something her but thus far even our most powerful decoders have been uble to make anything of this lot.

Ok I'll give you my law Immeditetly restict all provisional drivers to a maximum of 1 passenger under 25yrs of age, excluding immediate family members carrying appropriate ID. Enything outside of this a finable offence. Simple to implement, easy to enforce, and I guarantee it would safe a lot of lives.

What exactly can't you understand about that post? Everytime you can't be bothered rebutting something I say you just fall back on immature personal attacks, grow up. Passenger restrictions arn't a bad idea but I don't know if 4 idiots in one car is worse than 4 idiots in 2 different cars travelling together.