Dealer tactics

[Zaxx]

What^^^??

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by One Six

What^^^??

It's easy to see who has the credibility in any transaction.

Money = absolute value = buyer

Car = ? Value ? = salesman

[flappist]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

My theory on why car salesman are always gonna be considered snakes and shonks..

Like it or not the buyer always has the more credibility as he turns up to the sales yard with cash in his pocket, approved finance or equivalent etc. Money is money and there is NO dispute as to its value. $20,000 is $20,000 all day long. Today, tomorrow, yesterday no dispute. Person holding the cash cannot hand over $20,000 dishonestly. If he offers a trade the dealer usually gives a token value to it, lets be real. The buyer accepts that. So the buyer at all times remains credible.

However what is the salesman offering? A car of questionable value? He makes it appear better and over promise things to get the most money for it to create value that he can enjoy (commission). A car listed as $20,000 isnt worth that all day everyday etc etc, but the salesman asks for cash that is an absolute value. For years and years there are countless examples of people buying cars and not getting what they thought they were. So the salesman is trying to essentially sell off something of questionable value to someone offering something with an absolute value.

Why wouldnt the person trading the money which has an absolute value really put the salesman through the wringer before he accepts the item of questionable value. There is no risk from the salesman receiving cash as its absolute but heaps of risk for the car buyer.

Anyone who says the salesman should be treated easily needs to "wake up"

Interesting attitude.

Over the last 30 or so years that I have been running various businesses I have come across people with this sort of attitude. They are nasty and abrasive and my reaction is just to ban them.

Not only do I not want to deal with them, I do not want their money nor to have anything to do with them, ever.
Simply put THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BUY ANYTHING I HAVE AND ARE NOT ALLOWED ON THE PREMISES. THEIR MONEY HAS NO VALUE TO ME.

In addition I record their name and forward it to all the other businesses I deal with and/or know socially and in return I get a copy of their "Banned list" to assist me in determining idiots before spending too much time.
Not surprisingly the same names tend to turn up on many companies banned lists regardles of what type of business the company runs.

One thing about all humans is that we instinctively tend to expect other people to be like us. Honest people often get ripped off because they expect others to be honest and are surprised when they are not.
In reality, the instinctive way you expect others to act is a mirror of yourself.........

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

It's easy to see who has the credibility in any transaction.

Money = absolute value = buyer

Car = ? Value ? = salesman

Your'e an even bigger idiot than I first thought .

[b0son]

Originally Posted by flappist

One thing about all humans is that we instinctively tend to expect other people to be like us. Honest people often get ripped off because they expect others to be honest and are surprised when they are not.
In reality, the instinctive way you expect others to act is a mirror of yourself.........

So if you are ripped off by the sales guy, its because you were silly enough to expect him to be honest. If you go in expecting to be ripped off OTOH, its because you yourself are dishonest. But in neither scenario, the fault lies with the sales guy?

[noflac52]

Originally Posted by flappist

Interesting attitude.

Over the last 30 or so years that I have been running various businesses I have come across people with this sort of attitude. They are nasty and abrasive and my reaction is just to ban them.

Not only do I not want to deal with them, I do not want their money nor to have anything to do with them, ever.
Simply put THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BUY ANYTHING I HAVE AND ARE NOT ALLOWED ON THE PREMISES. THEIR MONEY HAS NO VALUE TO ME.

In addition I record their name and forward it to all the other businesses I deal with and/or know socially and in return I get a copy of their "Banned list" to assist me in determining idiots before spending too much time.
Not surprisingly the same names tend to turn up on many companies banned lists regardles of what type of business the company runs.

One thing about all humans is that we instinctively tend to expect other people to be like us. Honest people often get ripped off because they expect others to be honest and are surprised when they are not.
In reality, the instinctive way you expect others to act is a mirror of yourself.........

One can't argue with the fact that nasty abrasive customers are out there but they are in the minority.

Sadly the shonky salesman has been in the majority for the last 30yrs in my experience, in the car sales and real estate game, to the point where I won't buy a used vehicle from a dealership or sales yard anymore and I marketed the last property that I sold, myself. Saved a heap of money doing it and found out the minimal amount of work required to do so. Begs the question, why so much commision?

As the previous poster said the money is what has absolute value. This doesn't mean that it goes hand in hand with abrasiveness and nastiness. It just means that you should be aware that what you are purchasing when it comes to motor vehicles is that they have a subjective value and use the absolute value of money to your advantage.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by b0son

So if you are ripped off by the sales guy, its because you were silly enough to expect him to be honest. If you go in expecting to be ripped off OTOH, its because you yourself are dishonest. But in neither scenario, the fault lies with the sales guy?

OR

You can expect the sales guy to be honest until he proves himself to be a untrustworthy.

If you get ripped off it is your fault, no one elses, but if you go in abrasive and obtuse then do not be surprised if you are treated the same way.

Now I am rather confused as to why anyone would go to a car yard where they expected to be ripped off.

[wrongwaynorris]

" [QUOTE=RAPID_BA;4589971]Are car salesman told to tell you the truth?"

As a matter of fact yes they are , especially if they work for a franchised dealer , the likes of Ford , Holden , Toyota et al take an extremely dim view of a person representing their product lying about it to sell it , so dim a view infact they will very soon be looking for alternative employment .


" If you go into the hornets nest you must too be a hornet or they will sting you all day long."

With the attitude you portray you will get stung and stung hard , come to my yard and I will happilly demonstrate just how hard with an immense amount of pleasure .

Iv'e sold a shed load more cars then youv'e ever bought or ever will buy 100 lifetimes . I have NEVER had to resort to lying EVER to sell a car . The car is what it is , if it's new it's just like a thousand others if it's used it's unique but at the end of the day it is what it is . A dealer presents it and the consumer is free to consider it or not . Not really rocket science is it ?

[RAPID_BA]

When has anyone felt disappointed with the money they received for a sale? Money is money, there is no question as to its value. So the sales guy once a price is settled can never be let down by after sales support or not getting what they thought.

But how many people have paid good money and then drove off in a lemon. Worth considerably less than it appeared?

So why wouldnt someone holding the commodity that is an absolute value absolutely grill the salesperson offering the commodity of questionable value? I would see it as necessary.

[wrongwaynorris]

" Now I am rather confused as to why anyone would go to a car yard where they expected to be ripped off. "

Tell Rapid BA this please then he will NEVER set foot in a car yard ever .

[Professor Farnsworth]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

When has anyone felt disappointed with the money they received for a sale? Money is money, there is no question as to its value. So the sales guy once a price is settled can never be let down by after sales support or not getting what they thought.

But how many people have paid good money and then drove off in a lemon. Worth considerably less than it appeared?

So why wouldnt someone holding the commodity that is an absolute value absolutely grill the salesperson offering the commodity of questionable value? I would see it as necessary.

Your questions would be more suited to a philosophy forum. As far as we're concerned here, we use money to buy cars. If said car is lemon, we sell it or trade it on another. We don't go into the ethos and dynamics of how our hard earned dollar is worth more than a dollar 'value' in the price of a new car. Moving on..

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by flappist

Interesting attitude.

Over the last 30 or so years that I have been running various businesses I have come across people with this sort of attitude. They are nasty and abrasive and my reaction is just to ban them.

Not only do I not want to deal with them, I do not want their money nor to have anything to do with them, ever.

This just doesnt happen commercially. Whether Im big, short, rude, red haired or whatever. Money has an absolute value, my $20,000 is worth the same as anyones $20,000. So a car yard certainly in this day and age dont have the luxury to discriminate customers when they offer an absolute value such as cash.

Money is also far more liquid than a car (can exchange for all sorts of things) so the person holding $20,000 cash is far more free to do as they please than a person holding a $20,000 car. What can you exchange a $20,000 car for?

[Professor Farnsworth]

i'm giving you one more warning Hulk, you are crapping this thread to its limits and heading for yet another hulk-locked thread.

MOVE ON.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

What can you exchange a $20,000 car for?

As soon as you drive it out of the yard... oh, about $15,000

[wrongwaynorris]

" When has anyone felt disappointed with the money they received for a sale? "

Plenty of times when I have sold a car at a LOSS ( yes it happens a lot ) and had a customer previously interested in it ring up wanting to buy it with margin in it
.

" Money is money, there is no question as to its value. "

And cars are cars the same as motorcycles are motorcycles and boats are boats . I know this is going to come as a massive surprise to you but there is an entire industry ( worldwide ) that values used cars , it is populated by " VALUERS " who , I concede , obviously do not have your extensive knowledge of car values as they only spend every day of their lives doing it as compared to you who buys a second hand car once in a blue moon . But none the less they largely determine the profitability and in the current economic climate the very viability of a used car department .

" So the sales guy once a price is settled can never be let down by after sales support or not getting what they thought. "

They can be hounded by imbecilic customers who have totally unrealistic expectations and outrageous post sale demands .


" But how many people have paid good money and then drove off in a lemon. Worth considerably less than it appeared? "

Ever heard of Caveat et Emptor ( Buyer beware ) All and I mean ALL the protections enshrined in law are soley for the benefit of the consumer . The consumer is more than free to have a pre purcase inspection carried out if they wish .

" So why wouldnt someone holding the commodity that is an absolute value absolutely grill the salesperson offering the commodity of questionable value? I would see it as necessary "

A " grilling " is not an issue but someone walking into a yard and acting like a total XXXXwit does NOT constitute a grilling . Funny , for all the years I've done this I and 99% of my satisfied happy customers prefer to refer to it as NEGOTIATIONS , a legitimate tactic that both sides expect and happilly engage in .

[wrongwaynorris]

" So a car yard certainly in this day and age dont have the luxury to discriminate customers when they offer an absolute value such as cash. "

I do and would in yours and people of your ilks case .

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

$20,000 is $20,000 all day long. Today, tomorrow, yesterday no dispute.

You've obviously never heard of inflation, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow

I like the stuff you write Hulk, but I think you've gone a bit haywire in this thread.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

When has anyone felt disappointed with the money they received for a sale? Money is money, there is no question as to its value. So the sales guy once a price is settled can never be let down by after sales support or not getting what they thought.

But how many people have paid good money and then drove off in a lemon. Worth considerably less than it appeared?

So why wouldnt someone holding the commodity that is an absolute value absolutely grill the salesperson offering the commodity of questionable value? I would see it as necessary.

The mere fact you even ask this question precludes you from understanding the answer.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by flappist

Now I am rather confused as to why anyone would go to a car yard where they expected to be ripped off.

Its par for the course. Sales guys are in the business of getting you to part with as much money as possible. Its entirely reasonable for a customer to take all the flattery and ****-kissing with more than a grain of salt. Its called realism. It doesn't make the customer an inherently dishonest person themselves.

[Rodge]

At the end of the day it costs huge money to establish a modern franchised dealership, often serveral million dollars and that's before purchasing the stock.

The salesmen need to be paid, the sales manager, the Dealer principal, there's power, lease charges on the premises, admin staff e.t.c.e.t.c.

There's always been a reasonably sizeable difference between the wholesale value of a vehicle and its retail, their simply has to be otherwise the dealership couldn't exist to service one's needs.

Just because someone has $20,000 cash, (which yes has an indisputable value but so what...) has never given them the right to expect to buy a vehicle at its wholesale value, (lets' call that $15,000 for the sake of this debate).

On the other hand there's nothing to stop people engaging in a good spirited haggle, treat it like a bit of a game by all means but have respect for people's time and right to earn a fair living too), and by all means shop around within reason and if the said vehicle can be purchased after a good haggle for say $17,990 and there's a fair trade in offer, then that's good business for everyone I would have thought.

If you leave a reasonable margin in the deal there's food on the table for the salesman's kids, they have to eat too...

I probably paid a bit too much for one of my cars but they're really looking after me and have done so extremly well for nearly 6 years now...that's got to be worth something.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by b0son

Its par for the course. Sales guys are in the business of getting you to part with as much money as possible. Its entirely reasonable for a customer to take all the flattery and ****-kissing with more than a grain of salt. Its called realism. It doesn't make the customer an inherently dishonest person themselves.

Yes and no.

Which is the more profitable?

A car has a wholesale value of $20k

1) selling it for $35k and then making an enemy of the buyer and everyone he talks to for ever possibly longer.

2) selling it for $25k and then selling another to his friend and then one to his wife and then later one for each of their kids and then one to the friend's friend and his wife and the guy who lives across the road from him and their parents and the parents' friend.........

Reputation and credibility are worth far more than a quick sting.

There is a reason why some dealers have been around for decades while others come and go like a bad smell from the dump.......

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Rodge

If you leave a reasonable margin in the deal

The RRP is more than enough margin, but still the dealer insists on adding a $1000 car wash and ridiculously overpriced tint, paint protection and aftermarket options.

No wonder people feel like they have to haggle - the dealer will claw it all back anyway.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by b0son

The RRP is more than enough margin, but still the dealer insists on adding a $1000 car wash and ridiculously overpriced tint, paint protection and aftermarket options.

No wonder people feel like they have to haggle - the dealer will claw it all back anyway.

Interesting.

So which car yard do you run?
If not a car yard, what business do you run?

[barra240t]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes and no.

Which is the more profitable?

A car has a wholesale value of $20k

1) selling it for $35k and then making an enemy of the buyer and everyone he talks to for ever possibly longer.

2) selling it for $25k and then selling another to his friend and then one to his wife and then later one for each of their kids and then one to the friend's friend and his wife and the guy who lives across the road from him and their parents and the parents' friend.........

Reputation and credibility are worth far more than a quick sting.

There is a reason why some dealers have been around for decades while others come and go like a bad smell from the dump.......

May I also add those dealers who have been around for decades also have the staff members who have been with the same dealer for decades as well!

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by b0son

The RRP is more than enough margin, but still the dealer insists on adding a $1000 car wash and ridiculously overpriced tint, paint protection and aftermarket options.

No wonder people feel like they have to haggle - the dealer will claw it all back anyway.

Very few people are wooden ducks and don't haggle at all and its not that hard to say no to the pretty lady in the after sales department. I once actually said yes to her on some tint for my BF2 Typhoon because I wanted the tint and felt I'd got a really good deal on the car, I knew I could probably get the tint cheaper elsewhere but didn't really care, even an accountant can leave a few hundred bucks extra in the deal on the odd occasion

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Very few people are wooden ducks and don't haggle at all

Well, if the success of the FT86 is anything to go buy, that may change. The time is coming when people will be buying their cars online, foregoing the need for high margins and salespeople. I know I'd happily buy a car this way.

[Silver Ghia]

My beef here is with dealer servicing (wifes VW Polo) regarding the prices charged. After finding quotes for the service (approx 50% more for a normal service (around $500 was the cheapest) than for the Falcon), and drop the car in in the morning, a phone call about 1 hour into the service:

1. Mechanics say it needs a decarb service, $185. Well the car has only done 35,000km and runs like a swiss watch, plus we only use premium fuel and give it reasonably lengthy runs frequently. So No thanks. May be useful in some cases, but decarb services seem to have replaced the fuel injector service as the rort on offer.

2. The wipers need replacing, $132. Funny, I only replaced them about 6 months ago. So again no thanks.

VW's are attractively priced these days. But customers can look forward to the high servicing costs especially at 7 years when the timing belt and water pump gets changed (approx $1500 or more).

[b0son]

Originally Posted by flappist

Interesting.

So which car yard do you run?
If not a car yard, what business do you run?

Fair point, the profitability of one yard vs another can vary wildly, and perhaps for some, RRP isn't enough.

I suspect it doesn't help that there is a chasm between RRP and fleet/corporate pricing. Private buyers cant help but feel ripped off when they know person X got a 10% discount just because of where they work. It gives the impression of VERY flexible margins.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by b0son

Well, if the success of the FT86 is anything to go buy, that may change. The time is coming when people will be buying their cars online, foregoing the need for high margins and salespeople. I know I'd happily buy a car this way.

Must admitt the collaboration between Subaru and Toyota in this way with the resulting efficiencies in terms of amortising R&D over a far greater volume of vehicles, with the resulting price efficiencies is quite interesting.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

My beef here is with dealer servicing (wifes VW Polo) regarding the prices charged. After finding quotes for the service (approx 50% more for a normal service (around $500 was the cheapest) than for the Falcon), and drop the car in in the morning, a phone call about 1 hour into the service:

1. Mechanics say it needs a decarb service, $185. Well the car has only done 35,000km and runs like a swiss watch, plus we only use premium fuel and give it reasonably lengthy runs frequently. So No thanks. May be useful in some cases, but decarb services seem to have replaced the fuel injector service as the rort on offer.

2. The wipers need replacing, $132. Funny, I only replaced them about 6 months ago. So again no thanks.

VW's are attractively priced these days. But customers can look forward to the high servicing costs especially at 7 years when the timing belt and water pump gets changed (approx $1500 or more).

Happens very often. The trick is that you need to be on the ball with what your car exactly needs and always be prepared to say no to 'extras'.

And if you are not on the ball - get the stuff that apparently needs attention (mostly brakes and tyres) looked at by a second workshop.

After 7 years, at least you don't need to stress about factory warranty, ie you have the freedom to shop around.

I know when I did the timing belt on the Festiva I got proces from $390 to $1100.

Buying low and getting customers with follow up sales is nothing new either... Have you ever wondered why a colour printer can be bought for $39, yet the ink cartridges are, well also $39???