Should the Australian Government support local car manufacturers?

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If the auto manufacturers shut down then the government will then be spending millions paying all the workers dole cheques. Which would you rather. :

You just don’t get it do you?

Go back to school and “pay attention this time” when they are discussing the basic fundamentals of capitalism and business. And then go and learn a little bit about how governments work. The auto industry will not be shut down in this country, you moron. :

Do you know what all of the people that used to work at Kodak in Reservoir making film are doing now? I’m sure that not all of them are on the dole. We can blame the revolution of digital photography for that one, however, are you aware of how much of our (taxpayers) money went into this company to keep its doors open, only for it to sack a great deal of its workforce anyway?

Obviously with comments like your last post, shows that your knowledge base is limited on issues like this, so I won’t bother going in to too much detail.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

You just don’t get it do you?

Go back to school and “pay attention this time” when they are discussing the basic fundamentals of capitalism and business. And then go and learn a little bit about how governments work. The auto industry will not be shut down in this country, you moron. :

Do you know what all of the people that used to work at Kodak in Reservoir making film are doing now? I’m sure that not all of them are on the dole. We can blame the revolution of digital photography for that one, however, are you aware of how much of our (taxpayers) money went into this company to keep its doors open, only for it to sack a great deal of its workforce anyway?

Obviously with comments like your last post, shows that your knowledge base is limited on issues like this, so I won’t bother going in to too much detail.

Thanks for that Captain Obvious.

I work in the auto manufacturing industry and i'm sure i'm more informed of the issues then you are, so get off your high horse clown.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I work in the auto manufacturing industry and i'm sure i'm more informed of the issues then you are

Really? Well I’m going to nominate you for an AOM. You truly deserve it. I take my hat off to you, mate. Would you like a public holiday named after you as well?

[Fordman1]

Mmmmmmm......Ok, back on topic.

The federal govenment assists many industries. I think we all agree that the Automotive industry is important to this country, but the issue of support is bigger than that.

Should our automotive and other industries be disadvantaged, because they have to compete against products from other country's that have much more support / protection from their Govenments ? I say no.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander I say...

If countries don't give our Australian made products free access to their markets then should we give them total access to ours ?

The Australian Automotove industry shouldn't be pampered (it's not), but then again it shouldn't be completely abandoned by our Federal govenment. It's a fine line.

But our remaining manufacturers are REALLY struggling !

I hope Ford and the other manufacturers can develop products that'll allow them to export their heads off (Toyota is doing it already) into markets that don't slam the door on them or tax them out of competitiveness. The govenment should help the manufacturers do that somehow. Perhaps with tax incentives or other carrots.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Mmmmmmm......Ok, back on topic.

The federal govenment assists many industries. I think we all agree that the Automotive industry is important to this country, but the issue of support is bigger than that.

Should our automotive and other industries be disadvantaged, because they have to compete against products from other country's that have much more support / protection from their Govenments ? I say no.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander I say...

If countries don't give our Australian made products free access to their markets then should we give them total access to ours ?

The Australian Automotove industry shouldn't be pampered (it's not), but then again it shouldn't be completely abandoned by our Federal govenment. It's a fine line.

But our remaining manufacturers are REALLY struggling !

I hope Ford and the other manufacturers can develop products that'll allow them to export their heads off (Toyota is doing it already) into markets that don't slam the door on them or tax them out of competitiveness. The govenment should help the manufacturers do that somehow. Perhaps with tax incentives or other carrots.

You're making some big assumptions there, especially about govt support to the auto industry in other countrys..
Scales of ecconomy would be a big part of the difference, the relative strength of the australian dollar is too, lets face it, the Aussie dollar buys nearly 30% more today than it did 2 years ago relative to the US dollar, that alone is having a devistating effect on local manufacturing along with extremely low unemployment figures which are putting pressure on inflation.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You're making some big assumptions there, especially about govt support to the auto industry in other countrys..
Scales of ecconomy would be a big part of the difference, the relative strength of the australian dollar is too, lets face it, the Aussie dollar buys nearly 30% more today than it did 2 years ago relative to the US dollar, that alone is having a devistating effect on local manufacturing along with extremely low unemployment figures which are putting pressure on inflation.

Good point you make after reading my post above again. I think I used a broad brush to discuss the whole issue of govenment support for industries NOT just the automotive industry. And didn't explain myself properly.

I think part of the issue with Australian automotive manufacturers and export opportunities (apart from the dollar etc that you have mentioned above) is:

1. Having the right product at the right quality and cost, and

2. Having the support of the appropriate parent "Head Office" for future export deals and products.

I think that is where I was trying to head, and where the govenment can lend some support (what that is, I can't say).

NB: I hear (from discussions here) that the Thai govenment has been lobbying Ford for an opportunity to build the next Gen Focus in Thailand.

That process I think is an example of what govenment support "could be" for an Automotive plant in a particular country.

[4Vman]

Yes, i think there are many ways Governments can "support" local industries without giving cash out.
Having a Sensible product range is now more than ever the first step to consolidating a solid future.
Ford's dropping of LWB cars is a GOOD move if it means protecting the viability of the rest of the range, so is reducing (or boosting if possible) output to efficient levels, by that i mean every plant will have an optimum point of efficiency.
Say for example if Fords' is 380 units per day for a set number of shifts, trying to produce 500 may very well cost more per unit... (half shifts, O/T etc), which ultimately means even though they are making more cars some cars are sold at a reduced margin or in some cases a loss...
Holden are facing some challenges, a bad year maybe the catalyst for them to drop some of the niche market products that some die hard fans seem to love...
They seem to have flaunted common sense with some out there products (avalanche, GTS etc for example). Time for car companies to consolidate their ranges, combine some models rather than expand ranges and not increase their number of SKU's, which costs allot of money to manage.

[Tles]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

I’ll put that down as a typo as Australia exports rice to Japan.

As far as I’m concerned, the growing of rice and cotton in Australia should be banned. How many people here know how much water it takes to grow a kilogram of rice?

As for the local car industry… perhaps they should be doing more for the local suppliers of components before they source parts from overseas. The button plan certainly helped improve the quality of the locally built cars in Australia. How many here can remember, or are prepared to admit the atrocious build quality of the XD, XE, XF Falcon or the VB, VC, VH Commodore? Even worse, remember the old 12/20 warranty? Thank God those days are gone.


What the hell are you smoking? Farmers would be the most mollycoddled, over subsidised whingers in the entire community. Get off the drugs and get into the real world.

Well you do have a great Avatar so I'll bite.

Australian rice growers use roughly 30% of the water per kilo of their international competition and return a positive net land inprovement through sustained land improvements and laser gradation. Farmers have little choice but to focus on technological and practical innovation - I believe economic realists call it putting their money where their mouth is. Australia is a harsh environment even in a great season. Cotton growers have had similar extraordinary successes with regard input v output and including soil management. Genuine adaptation and innovation. Exploitation of market opportunity. Weekly Times can make for educational reading, especially for politicians.

Innovation, adaption and doing more with less has not only always been the Australian way but our biggest competitive advantage. Backing your judgement and following your instinct to have a go.

The fundamentals of business and economics are changing rapidly and Globalisation is being shown for the flawed concept that it is. It's the same way as the US was taught in Vietnam and Korea how local knowledge and commitment, using home advantage and incorporating native zeal & cultural methodology can decimate a big stick, well equipped and overconfident opponent. (Afghanistan, Iraq) Aussies did very well though, through working with what you've got and finding creative solutions to do what you do best. Listening and adapting with courage exceeding ego and experience.

This is why Holden is now the world development HQ for RWD platforms and a design leader for the world. Ford is looking closely at doing the same. Big results from a small nation. If you want to look at all the Government incentives and handouts that have been forthcoming recently. They have been tied to innovation, export and development and are aimed at training and offering real world and worldwide experience to our engineering, design and technology minds. Look at the metals and lightweight high strength materials coming out of tie up with Deakin Uni, Magnesium and injection plastics, alloys, electronics - high tech industries. Even the web materials innovations out of CSIRO.

Now what were we saying again about Australian industry and government support. Should we give it to the lesbians and their girlfriends to tour the arts industries and then come back here paid to run the Melbourne Festival, Moomba, etc. (I like boobs too, just not paying them to run the country). Or where else should our Government invest our dollars for our futures.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

You just don’t get it do you?

Go back to school and “pay attention this time” when they are discussing the basic fundamentals of capitalism and business. And then go and learn a little bit about how governments work. The auto industry will not be shut down in this country, you moron. :

Do you know what all of the people that used to work at Kodak in Reservoir making film are doing now? I’m sure that not all of them are on the dole. We can blame the revolution of digital photography for that one, however, are you aware of how much of our (taxpayers) money went into this company to keep its doors open, only for it to sack a great deal of its workforce anyway?

Obviously with comments like your last post, shows that your knowledge base is limited on issues like this, so I won’t bother going in to too much detail.

The Kodak example is different and was bought about by changes in technology that made people less reliant on film (and film processing) The automotive industry is completely different in terms of scale (as I said tens of thousands of jobs) and there is no technology that is about to replace cars (at least not in the next decade). This year it is tipped that more Australians will buy more cars than ever before. Therefore it is in the governments interests to support the local automotive industry.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

You just don’t get it do you?

Go back to school and “pay attention this time” when they are discussing the basic fundamentals of capitalism and business. And then go and learn a little bit about how governments work. The auto industry will not be shut down in this country, you moron. :

Obviously with comments like your last post, shows that your knowledge base is limited on issues like this, so I won’t bother going in to too much detail.

Umm, sorry to burst your bubble here full noise but if you put more pressure on the automotive industry in Oz by way of abolishing the 7.5% tariffs, then you will see them go off shore.

The automotive industry here is already struggling ever since that knob jockey Keating rode in on Kinky Kelly the donkey (Clerks 2), and decided that all manufacturing in this country should have all forms of protection removed.

Since then, our manufacturing industries have benefited so much from his pearl necklace of wisdom; with manufacturing now representing a total of less than 10% of the economy where 40 years earlier it represented over 60%. Some may say that relying solely on imports may be bad for a country, but not Oz, at least we are lucky in the fact that the Chinese and other nations would never raise their prices, wait, too late they already have and continue to do so.

Simple fact is that Ford and Holden have become LEAN manufacturers ever since they had protections removed in the late 80's, and their products have vastly improved in value in order to remain competitive. However, even after the dust settled on the collective efficiency drives within the 4 companies that was vital to remain open, some continue to make a loss and are bailed out by their parent company annually. As such, the government is asked to contribute by way of R&D grants, tax incentives, and fleet purchasing (even though that has been proposed by Pixie to come to an end for a want of Toyota Pious').

Should governments help companies that employ thousands of Australians, or should it let some of the biggest employers in this nation go overseas leaving thousands unemployed?
Should the government allow another industry to leave our shores never to make a return for the sake of 50m a year?
Should we allow ourselves to have a market in which exporters can set their own price and we reluctantly have to put up with it?

Other countries would kill for what we have, and here we are again, the proverbial PITA's complaining about assisting industries which have been directly affected by the overblown ego of a megalomaniacal twat. At least the government is making good on cleaning up someone else’s mess.

[bigAl]

I voted no, i think our tax dollars can be better spent elsewhere rather than keeping dieing car companys alive. If something is dieing let it be. Its the circle of life. all the winge winge winging in the world won't save em

[JG66ME]

The biggest thing I see the Governmrnt doing at the moment is NOT taxing company cars. In the UK company cars are taxed so most people have handed them back and taken cash instead. Here the fleet buyer accounts for a lot of Falcons and Commodores. I know if my company car was taxed that would be one less car every three years Ford sold.

Steve

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

The biggest thing I see the Governmrnt doing at the moment is NOT taxing company cars. In the UK company cars are taxed so most people have handed them back and taken cash instead. Here the fleet buyer accounts for a lot of Falcons and Commodores. I know if my company car was taxed that would be one less car every three years Ford sold.

Steve

Company cars are taxed: FBT for the private use component. They shouldnt incur a tax for business use though as they are an expense for the business.

[BAFalconXT]

Originally Posted by ltd

Sorry, but that is a very limited view of the problems you have cited.
There is a balance to be achieved and frankly, any more pressure on the locals WILL send them off shore. Holden has already started the exodus with most parts for the VE coming from Korea; do you want them all to do that?
I agree that in the days of the 25% tarriffs the cars weren't all that special, but these days they are amongst the best. If we were to get rid of the tarrifs (5-10%) then the net effect would be akin to bending over and dropping your pants in Surrey Hills.

Every nation offers some kind of protection on their industries, it would be suicidal not to, and free trade; that is real free trade, only works when every other nation drops their protection on their industries as well.
As for the Americans and their auto industry; they are just selling smaller cars and the big 4 car makers are only catching up to the trend. As for their costs, America has the toughest auto union in the world where an employee can get a pension for life after working 5 years. That's what's sending them broke.

Do you think Holden would have been as proactive trying to sell its cars overseas without lowing tariffs and other help. The Statesman, Monaro, and the new Commodore will/have all been sold overseas in large numbers, more than that even sold to the local market. Unless these cars are sold at competitive prices they will not be able to be sold overseas.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by BAFalconXT

Do you think Holden would have been as proactive trying to sell its cars overseas without lowing tariffs and other help. The Statesman, Monaro, and the new Commodore will/have all been sold overseas in large numbers, more than that even sold to the local market. Unless these cars are sold at competitive prices they will not be able to be sold overseas.

Actually Holden sell the majority of the cars they manufactured here in Oz, Holden export on average 3800 cars per month. Sales for Commodore alone in Australia are typically double that.(not to mentions utes, wagons, statesman etc)

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Company cars are taxed: FBT for the private use component. They shouldnt incur a tax for business use though as they are an expense for the business.

Aware of that, about 2k a year. In the UK you get taxed at income tax rates on the full benefit. I believe GBP4k and higher is not uncommon. Thats about 10k AU.

Steve

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Really? Well I’m going to nominate you for an AOM. You truly deserve it. I take my hat off to you, mate. Would you like a public holiday named after you as well?

Damn straight, but only if I can nominate you for President of the Clown Club, which has just been started to honour you. : :togo: :thebirds: :MrT_anim:

Now back on topic.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ltd

As such, the government is asked to contribute by way of R&D grants, tax incentives, and fleet purchasing (even though that has been proposed by Pixie to come to an end for a want of Toyota Pious').

Actually the government wasn't asked, as apart of the button plan the car companies would get money from the government so that tariffs were lowered. Its actually quite good, part of the monies for the development of the I6 motor to comply with emission laws was supplied by the government in the form of a grant, but Holden was rejected in their grant submission because the engine wasn't Australian enough to comply.
The car companies agreed to the lowering of tariffs and the big 4 do meet with the government to talk about changes that will effect their business.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Actually the government wasn't asked, as apart of the button plan the car companies would get money from the government so that tariffs were lowered. Its actually quite good, part of the monies for the development of the I6 motor to comply with emission laws was supplied by the government in the form of a grant, but Holden was rejected in their grant submission because the engine wasn't Australian enough to comply.
The car companies agreed to the lowering of tariffs and the big 4 do meet with the government to talk about changes that will effect their business.

Im led to believe Holden were pinged recently for miss use of R+D funds too... and may miss out on future help as a result.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im led to believe Holden were pinged recently for miss use of R+D funds too... and may miss out on future help as a result.

Didn't hear about that one. But then again I've been out of the car industry for 5 months. This is the best place I can get info now!! lol

[Tles]

R&D is a funny thing. Kodak created a camera with a radar based view finder settup. It didn't sell, but made massive $$$ for them. How?.. Royalties on all those radar reversing sensors they were adapted to.

The Industrialised world is starting to learn the value of a global platform linking together individual cells or operations which do what they do best where they do it best, and disseminate the knowledge and advantage across the whole organisation.
Ford under Mulally is showing the way. Long transitional period and Unions need to promote the talent base's achievements and potential, not just focus on the way things were done. You could think of it as using the best players in their position and providing them with the support to help the team win.

[BAFalconXT]

Originally Posted by SB076

Actually Holden sell the majority of the cars they manufactured here in Oz, Holden export on average 3800 cars per month. Sales for Commodore alone in Australia are typically double that.(not to mentions utes, wagons, statesman etc)

More Monaros were being sent overseas than were being sold here. I am not sure of the numbers of Statesmans being sold overseas, but it has to be a large perportion. And the Pontiac branded commodores havent started being sold there yet, so who knows the numbers yet?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by BAFalconXT

More Monaros were being sent overseas than were being sold here. I am not sure of the numbers of Statesmans being sold overseas, but it has to be a large perportion. And the Pontiac branded commodores havent started being sold there yet, so who knows the numbers yet?

Holden didnt produce that many Monaro's or Statesmans (at least compared to how many Commodores) Thats why the majority of the cars they manufacture are still sold here (Holdens website states that they export 3800 cars per month, but the sales for Commodore in Australia alone in a month are more than double that) The Pontiac branded commodores are expected to be 40,000 eav (depending on sales etc) Even including these, they would still sell more cars in Oz than export. Really really rough figures
Holden manufacture 100,000 cars per year (+40,000 for the Pontiac) therefore 140,000 total. If they sell approx. 7000 vehicles in Aus of Commodore/Statesman/Utes that means they sell roughly 80,000 vehicles in Aus and they export 60,000.

[Van D]

I think the gov should give some of course, but not on a silver platter.

I think the general public should support local manufacturers across the board. Still young myself (19, if you didn't know), there's only me, and one of my band mates who seem to be patriotic about supporting this country (he grew up pretty strict with none of that American Sesame Street rubbish! heh). Wherever I can, I buy Aus made AND owned products, if i'm out with someone and they want a coffee etc, I make them go to Gloria Jeans, not Starbucks. Little things like that. Virtually none of my friends (or anyone I know) my age or not, is interesting in supporting this country. Of course there's the dreamers who say "I'm true blue Aussie", but a lot of them these days are driving imports, working for and supporting the internationally owned franchises popping up everywhere and buying anything from clothes to grocery food to tools that are made outside the country. There's just not enough people who are willing to throw out a couple more bucks to support local. I find buying Aus made things that are a bit more expensive in stores is often evened out by buying local produce (even fruit and veg) direct from farmers or local stalls where it's dirt cheap. Plus you get to meet the locals and make a difference to them.

Not completely on topic but my 2c.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by popinfresh

I think the gov should give some of course, but not on a silver platter.

I think the general public should support local manufacturers across the board. Still young myself (19, if you didn't know), there's only me, and one of my band mates who seem to be patriotic about supporting this country (he grew up pretty strict with none of that American Sesame Street rubbish! heh). Wherever I can, I buy Aus made AND owned products, if i'm out with someone and they want a coffee etc, I make them go to Gloria Jeans, not Starbucks. Little things like that. Virtually none of my friends (or anyone I know) my age or not, is interesting in supporting this country. Of course there's the dreamers who say "I'm true blue Aussie", but a lot of them these days are driving imports, working for and supporting the internationally owned franchises popping up everywhere and buying anything from clothes to grocery food to tools that are made outside the country. There's just not enough people who are willing to throw out a couple more bucks to support local. I find buying Aus made things that are a bit more expensive in stores is often evened out by buying local produce (even fruit and veg) direct from farmers or local stalls where it's dirt cheap. Plus you get to meet the locals and make a difference to them.

Not completely on topic but my 2c.

Absolutely, more people should do the same and this country would be better for it.

[BAFalconXT]

Originally Posted by SB076

Holden didnt produce that many Monaro's or Statesmans (at least compared to how many Commodores) Thats why the majority of the cars they manufacture are still sold here (Holdens website states that they export 3800 cars per month, but the sales for Commodore in Australia alone in a month are more than double that) The Pontiac branded commodores are expected to be 40,000 eav (depending on sales etc) Even including these, they would still sell more cars in Oz than export. Really really rough figures
Holden manufacture 100,000 cars per year (+40,000 for the Pontiac) therefore 140,000 total. If they sell approx. 7000 vehicles in Aus of Commodore/Statesman/Utes that means they sell roughly 80,000 vehicles in Aus and they export 60,000.

And how many did they export before the reduction of import tariffs?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by BAFalconXT

And how many did they export before the reduction of import tariffs?

Not sure however it would be a relatively small number (this is due to several reasons however not just tarrifs) If the industry is not protected and it does go overseas then we will be exporting nothing. Countires all around the world protect there local industries for a variety of industries (even China - has controls on there dollar, that help export, but hinder imports)