Diluted Petrol

Boosh Brus · 19-12-2007, 10:54 AM

Sorry if this is a repost but WTF?
Id be ****ed off if this guy owned my local petrol station.
Anyone know of any other stories like this?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...740313527.html

Fev · 19-12-2007, 11:46 AM

id be ****ed off too.. if you wanna try and get back at coles/woolys.. do it another way, not through your customers..

sleekism · 19-12-2007, 12:33 PM

Used to happen all the time in the late 90's petrol scare when petrol first hit 80 cents a litre.

Bastards use to water down petrol all over Sydney. Poor old XF....

ED Classic · 19-12-2007, 12:45 PM

Agree..Used to happen all the time

TadKa · 19-12-2007, 01:10 PM

So what was the go when it happened in the 90's. Premium fuel actully being 91ron like this story? or was there something else dodgy? I remember once servos were getting ripped off from distributors as they were being delivered hot fuel from the refinery that shrinked once it cooled of in tanks. Any other petrol based scams? how do you know a litre is really a litre?

sleekism · 19-12-2007, 01:17 PM

We had lots of water in the fuel tank in the 90's. Poor old XF hated it. You could REALLY notice the difference depending where you filled up.

TadKa · 19-12-2007, 01:50 PM

So they really did 'water it down' I thought that was a figure of speech,

MarkAW · 19-12-2007, 03:34 PM

What a load of crap - Nobody deliberately put water in their underground fuel tanks.

What they did do was to cancel or postphone regular servicing of their tanks and to run the tanks at a lower level. By running less fuel in the tank they have less cash flow tied up in product underground. By running a lower fuel level there is more air in the tank and therefore more water vapour to condense against the tank walls. Without the regular service, the water just stays there until you suck it up and put it in your fuel tank.

What has also happened in recent years is the dillution of petrol and occassionaly diesel fuel with industrial products such as kerosine, white or stoddard solvent - all of which aren't federally taxed and therefore substantially cheaper.

MarkAW · 19-12-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadKa

I remember once servos were getting ripped off from distributors as they were being delivered hot fuel from the refinery that shrinked once it cooled of in tanks.

All petrol purchased by retail outlets are purchased at L15 quantities. What this means is the temperature of the fuel as it enters the tanker is measured and the volume of the fuel is recalculated as if it was 15 degrees C in temperature. But you pay more per litre for this measure of fuel. I run 5 industrial refuelling stations but I cant buy the fuel at L15 rate and therefore get "hot" fuel but I pay less for it. If you want to see the pricing difference check this Shell site Shell Terminal Gate Price. The Terminal Gate Price (TGP) is the price the a retailer or a commercial customer (me) will buy fuel for. Note there are additional charges to add to the TGP which are fixed under the contract with Shell ie delivery, finance etc.

**Charliewool** · 19-12-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ED Classic

Agree..Used to happen all the time

"Watering down" in the early days (pre 86) usually consisted of topping up the Super with Standard (Super was around 98 ron and Standard a measly 88ron) or, yes giving it a good dose of white spirits (Turps)

MarkAW · 19-12-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliewool

"Watering down" in the early days (pre 86) usually consisted of topping up the Super with Standard (Super was around 98 ron and Standard a measly 88ron) or, yes giving it a good dose of white spirits (Turps)

Theres not much point in mixing standard with super. Service stations of the 50s to 70s era were built with mostly 20 and 30 thousand litre steel tanks - generally between 4 and six of them. The fuel was only 3 or 4 cents per litre more expensive hence a 50:50 mix would net you $450 per tank where as a 75:25 mix of petrol to kerosine (one of the few fluids which is purchased in tanker bulk) will cost a few cents more per litre but saves a massive 37.7 cents per litre in federal excise. This equates to $2828 per tank. The fact that it wont burn very well especially in low compression or worn engines would seem to be irrelevant to the station owner/operator.

TadKa · 20-12-2007, 10:48 AM

Thanks MarkAW. quite interesting.

Chrispy · 20-12-2007, 11:34 AM

MarkAW,
I'm affraid servo owners do put water in thier tanks.
The tank pick-ups are a distance of the tank floor. This is to let the small amounts of water and crap that find there way into the tank to settle on the bottom and not be pumped into cars.
Because of the height of the pick-up there is a dead zone of fuild under this.
This is wasted product (the servo owner pays for it but never uses it).
The answer is to put water in the tank (water being heavier) up until just below the pick-up.
While it stays below the pick-up and is settled there are no problems.
If it gets above the pick-up or is disturbed, water ends up in cars.

For that reason NEVER EVER fill up at a servo that has a tanker in it.

Chrispy

MarkAW · 20-12-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrispy

MarkAW,
I'm affraid servo owners do put water in thier tanks.
The tank pick-ups are a distance of the tank floor. This is to let the small amounts of water and crap that find there way into the tank to settle on the bottom and not be pumped into cars.
Because of the height of the pick-up there is a dead zone of fuild under this.
This is wasted product (the servo owner pays for it but never uses it).
The answer is to put water in the tank (water being heavier) up until just below the pick-up.
While it stays below the pick-up and is settled there are no problems.
If it gets above the pick-up or is disturbed, water ends up in cars.

For that reason NEVER EVER fill up at a servo that has a tanker in it.

Chrispy

Rubbish

The pickup is somewhere between10 & 20mm in height - its a flat piece of steel welded to the bottom of the tank (steel tank obviously). Only an ignorant DH who has no idea what he's doing would put water deliberately in a tank. The non-pickup amount in a 30kL tank is approximately 500L and about 800L for a 55kL tank.

Service stations don't deliberately put water in tanks and this applies even more with diesel. Polymerisation of diesel fuel occurs at the fuel/water interface - for years this was thought to be an algal growth but its not. By putting water in diesel an operator can destroy an entire tank of fuel. The fuel company can easily prove that water was added to the tank - a GC will show chlorines which aren't present in rainwater. Once chlorines are found no compensation will be paid for faulty fuel.

BTW once the tank has been filled once - he never pays for the so-called dead zone ever again.

Chrispy do you have actual evidence (like you know some DH who is doing this) or are you listening to urban mythology. It sounds more like the later. I work with this industry and also qualified in the design and construction of refuelling stations. So far I've built 5 of them.

**fordomatic** · 20-12-2007, 04:48 PM

we got some fuel from dayboro servo put it in the lawnmower and the engine spluttered and then stopped. took it in and the engine was rooted. they asked if we put water in the tank WTF. Took a bottle down the servo questioned the owner and he pleaded to us not to say anything. Small country town would have ruined his buisiness. so should have dobbed him in. Got a grand out of him to fix the mower.

Kommandant · 21-12-2007, 02:39 AM

I nearly always fill my car up there :(

**fordomatic** · 21-12-2007, 06:11 PM

well the tip from me id too STOP.

Nostalgia · 21-12-2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleekism

Used to happen all the time in the late 90's petrol scare when petrol first hit 80 cents a litre.

Bastards use to water down petrol all over Sydney. Poor old XF....

Same thing is happening now, but they are using Ethanol instead. Possibly diluting the Ethanol with water. Petrol just isnt what it used to be.

MarkAW · 21-12-2007, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NostalgEA

Same thing is happening now, but they are using Ethanol instead. Possibly diluting the Ethanol with water. Petrol just isnt what it used to be.

The ethanol is mixed in the tanker as part of the load - its not delivered separately or even in separate tanker compartments.

If you contaminate the petrol/ethanol mix with anything greater than 0.1% water the ethanol comes out of solution and the fuel companies wont compensate the retailer for the damaged product. Again the petrol company will GC the fuel for trace amounts of chlorines and if found then again no compo.

If the retailer cant prove that the tanks and line systems weren't clean prior to the introduction of ethanol blended fuel then the petrol company wont warrant the product - no compo for faulty product. The retailer also has to prove regular maintenance of the tanks or again no compo. That compo also includes any claim by the public against the retailer.

With ethanol blends what you may get is the ethanol which has come out of solution but this will only happen on a poorly serviced tank which generally lies idle for extended periods. It wont happen at a service station which is regularly used.

It will cost my company approximately $20K per site to introduce blended fuel and the bloody state government is trying to force me to do it. That $20k is spent on getting pumps, lines and tanks flushed and cleaned and I don't believe its worth it.

Really people - Service stations deliberately putting water in fuel tanks - it just doesnt happen unless the proprietor is an absolute moron and doesn't know jack about his business. It could only be remotely possible on a privately owned site which are few and far between and is more likely a result of lack of maintenance. It wont happen on a company owned site cause the major's have too many rules and regs which must be followed and those that work there are all employees - no financial benefit.

BTW NostalgEA There are plenty of fuel stations which dont have blended fuels or have blendeds as well as straight fuel. No one is forcing you to buy ethanol fuel - YET.

Need_a_V8 · 22-12-2007, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrispy

MarkAW,
I'm affraid servo owners do put water in thier tanks.
The tank pick-ups are a distance of the tank floor. This is to let the small amounts of water and crap that find there way into the tank to settle on the bottom and not be pumped into cars.
Because of the height of the pick-up there is a dead zone of fuild under this.
This is wasted product (the servo owner pays for it but never uses it).
The answer is to put water in the tank (water being heavier) up until just below the pick-up.
While it stays below the pick-up and is settled there are no problems.
If it gets above the pick-up or is disturbed, water ends up in cars.

For that reason NEVER EVER fill up at a servo that has a tanker in it.

Chrispy

What a load of bull. There are very strict guidelines that service stations follow.

Most service stations dip their tanks every day for fuel and it is not allowed to contain any more than a few mm of water at the bottom of the tank. Well below the pickups.

Also, if the fuel in the tank runs below a set level they are not allowed to trade from that tank following a delivery for up to 3 hours to allow the fuel to re-settle.

All service stations owned by the big 4 (BP, Shell, Caltex and Mobil) have VERY strict guidelines and they follow them to the letter. They have far much to lose not to, and will not water down their fuel just to save a few hundred bucks when they are all multi-billion dollar world wide companies. So if you are to worry about any servo's it is the independantly owned ones to watch. They often have no idea, no policy and no guidelines.

MarkAW · 22-12-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Need_a_V8

What a load of bull. There are very strict guidelines that service stations follow.

Finally - there's someone out there that knows more than just the urban mythology

fmc351 · 22-12-2007, 10:48 AM

so we're saying they put water in the tanks...

OK gotcha.

:

**GasoLane** · 22-12-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadKa

So they really did 'water it down' I thought that was a figure of speech,

Why is it that some people - I'm NOT picking on TadKa here, just using his quote- cannot work out that Petrol and Water DONT MIX!

Try it yourself, put some Petrol in a jar then add water. What happens? the water sinks to the bottom and all the shaking in the world will not make it blend.....Sheesh!

TadKa · 22-12-2007, 07:08 PM

Don't worry I really didnt believe it. just going along with what others were saying. My first post was commenting on servos 'watering' down by using 91ron.

**aussiblue** · 23-12-2007, 12:22 AM

There are additives that can make water and oil mix; eg meths works pretty well as it is miscible (able to mix) with water and fuel.

**aussiblue** · 23-12-2007, 12:34 AM

meths is also miscible with methanol.

**aussiblue** · 23-12-2007, 12:36 AM

Ethanol is also miscible with water so adding a water ethanol mix might be what they did.

broken_suave · 23-12-2007, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

There are additives that can make water and oil mix; eg meths works pretty well as it is miscible (able to mix) with water and fuel.

Yep, hence why if you end up with water in your cars petrol tank, a dose of metho will help it clear out. Wont make your engine very happy for the next little while, mostly cause of the water, but it saves further hassles down the track.

The G6ET Spot · 23-12-2007, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkAW

All petrol purchased by retail outlets are purchased at L15 quantities. What this means is the temperature of the fuel as it enters the tanker is measured and the volume of the fuel is recalculated as if it was 15 degrees C in temperature. But you pay more per litre for this measure of fuel. I run 5 industrial refuelling stations but I cant buy the fuel at L15 rate and therefore get "hot" fuel but I pay less for it. If you want to see the pricing difference check this Shell site Shell Terminal Gate Price. The Terminal Gate Price (TGP) is the price the a retailer or a commercial customer (me) will buy fuel for. Note there are additional charges to add to the TGP which are fixed under the contract with Shell ie delivery, finance etc.

Maybe you might be able to let us know as to why the TGP price for premium(98ron) fuel is 6cents a litre dearer than 91ron.

But when it gets to the station we are being charged anywhere up to 14 cents a litre extra for it.

It has always made me wonder.

i think it is just a way for the station owners to shaft us again.

Jesk · 23-12-2007, 05:11 PM

well coming from a guy thats worked in servos since high school, water testing is VERY STRICT!!! its done weekly for non-ethanol fuels and daily for ethanol blends for the reasons mentioned before

Quote:

If you contaminate the petrol/ethanol mix with anything greater than 0.1% water the ethanol comes out of solution and the fuel companies wont compensate the retailer for the damaged product. Again the petrol company will GC the fuel for trace amounts of chlorines and if found then again no compo.

In South Australia no coles express site that I know of (ive worked at over 20 of them) have ethanol blends there at all and there isn't even the slightest added to normal fuels, (I know this cos the manual water test paste would react just the same way for ethanol as for water) (the stuff for ethanol fuel costs 4 times as much) Though a lot of sites are being changed to electronic dipping procedures which daily will tell us how much water may be in a tank and the depth (accurate to the litre and 10th of a mm in depth) The site I currently work at I have never seen any water noted on the report but our tanks are only 12months old.

**note: I have been a manager also so I know what both sides of the procedure is**