Apology

[Polyal]

dammint I said id stop but I cant.

I dont know what all this talk about "wider issues between AFF and E-Series that we need to address". There are none that I know of....the e-series section does not need to be bottle fed, if anything, the e-series is doing quite well as it is. Surely its at its biggest membership number, and lets not be coy, FFA has given e-series a huge boost. And visa versa.

[wulos]

Another comment from a complete?? outsider? Hopefully it may make some sense. Before Im completely dismissed as an outsider, realise I actually own an ED, and an EL, yet haven't posted on here regularly as Id often felt ostracised due to living in far off NSW, & not being the same age as traditional E series members...(Is this warranted....time will tell I guess)
Out of all turmoil there comes opportunity for improvement. A LOT of people on here have valid points on BOTH sides of the argument. Instead of arguing about the he said she said crap. Let's get this on track & focus upon improving things for everyone.
In the current environment we have to work with, there's a few things we can & a few things we can't change. What is the current structure of this forums? Aff admin - then smaller forums beneath that. In the case of club forums, the club is allowed some flexibility in being able to nominate candidates for consideration for the role of subforum moderators. If this candidate recieves endorsement, then they are taken on board & offered training / support to be able to complete their appointed duties, in keeping with the rest of AFF as a whole(means wherever you go on AFF you will know you will be treated fairly & evenly - or that is the goal).
From here I think what we need to do, is work on a few nominations of who would make a good moderator(s), to put up for consideration. Need to remember. someone that is great working on engines, or is great at bodywork, or arranging runs is not necessarily the same person that will look at posts on a page & make a judgement call as to what typed comments are constructive, and what is inflamatory, or merely an uneducated guess that may end up getting others into serious troubles.
Anyone like to make some serious nominations??

[Jokers Wild]

Originally Posted by russellw

The bridge builders are the people who have managed to understand that the removal of a mod (our undeniable right) isn't the issue here but that there are wider issues between AFF and E-Series that we need to address.

In the final analysis there are only two ways to address these issues. One is with bridge builders working together to make whatever changes need to be made. The other sees us all deciding it is too hard and going our seperate ways.
Russ

I supose this is an oportunity for all e series people and others who have a true interest in improving the relationship between adim / forum in general ( not that i ever saw a problem ) now is thier chance to do so in a positive way with the end result being a win for all.

if i can start with this quote by walkinshaw

posted by Walkinshaw

Russ, one of the issues that alot of people raise to me is the problem of apparent elietesum. You can not say it isn't rife with a straight face. The comments i hear from a HUGE majority of both eseries and newer "better" vehciles is based arround elitisum. Many owners of some of the older cars paint the A,B sections and owners with one brush the "stuck up elitist" brush. From what i can gather this is in responce to the common baging or shunning of the "mutants" or the way that A,B owners act supperior (there are NUMEROUS threads where this is the case aparently, one started today even). Wether ot not this happens (its just from what I've heard) or if it is justified is beside my point, Im just raising the point that it is present and it can NOT be denied.

As a BA owner, i would 100% agree with your comments and feel sadened that there are some people who do have this elitist view as if they are in some way better than others, but i would like to also make point that most people with later model cars ( in the majority ) are older people who have been working longer and have been able to over time be in a position to purchase a better car, but in saying this we also started out with the worst cars, and i like many would never class ourselves as elite or better than any one else.

It's only one pebble in the water but not all of us are that way and we also have little time for people who for reasons only they know of think they are better than others, i can only offer one appology ( mine ) to all e series guys who have thought this way.

To some positive stuff, i for one love reading about the many talents the e series guys have and thier ability to turn these cars into stunning road and track cars, and if i even had half of the talent you guys have in my little finger i would feel proud.

So regardless of whats percieved some of us guys hold you in the highest praise.

im sure the people involved in the discussion will over time sort thier issues, for the rest of the guys n gals It would be good to see some other constructive views on improvement for the benifit of all.

JW

[HOON69]

No one said johns position in the e-series club has to change.

NOTE TO ALL THE ABOVE IS TRUE

This isn't my call - it is your club and thus your decision as a group.

AS IS THIS QOUTE e series isn't fordforums australia's its mearly apart of the forums as is many of ford club sections etc the admin dont run e series nor do they say whom is the rep etc EFFALCON might not be a mod but his def apart of the E series CREW and we are a group and we all basically decided this clubs fate,lets not go astray,as someone said its only mod status,so he cant edit remove threads and replies his still gunna provide great stuff for the e series club.

Russ, one of the issues that alot of people raise to me is the problem of apparent elietesum. You can not say it isn't rife with a straight face. The comments i hear from a HUGE majority of both eseries and newer "better" vehciles is based arround elitisum. Many owners of some of the older cars paint the A,B sections and owners with one brush the "stuck up elitist" brush. From what i can gather this is in responce to the common baging or shunning of the "mutants" or the way that A,B owners act supperior (there are NUMEROUS threads where this is the case aparently, one started today even). Wether ot not this happens (its just from what I've heard) or if it is justified is beside my point, Im just raising the point that it is present and it can NOT be denied.

i have to agree some of those points do happen and its sad etc but our main issue is the topic heading and we should remain on that if possible.all concerns should be taken up with the appropiate persons..

i hope this is sorted shortly EFFALCON is a great guy and this site is by far the best ford site in OZ so lets not ruin that ay ;)

[TUFED6]

Originally Posted by EBGLi2NV

have you ever been to an eseries event?
have you ever taken notice of who has organised *every* eseries event?
have you ever seen us ask for help from the other parts of the forums?

And there you have it, seems to be alot of noise from people that have nothing to do with the club and don't attend any of the events.

- John

[LTDHO]

I didn't even know there was an issue between AFF and E-series! (LTDHO slaps forehead) I thought we were the same club... :
With every meet I organised, AFF inc Admin have been invited.

Anyway, Let get it back to what worked. Then refine it. Too easy.

Russ, if you deside to run a poll. Will it be here or Donating members forum?

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

if you deside to run a poll. Will it be here or Donating members forum?

Not sure why you would think, a Poll would be run in the DM Forum?
.

Originally Posted by russellw

This isn't my call - it is your club and thus your decision as a group.
If you want me to run a poll to that effect in this thread or another then I shall do so.

Russ

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by TUFED6

And there you have it, seems to be alot of noise from people that have nothing to do with the club and don't attend any of the events.

- John

And whats the deal with all these new people logging on with less than 100 posts and having input? I dont get it. :

I didnt realise there was an issue until John posted his original thread up.

I really dont understand why this is such a huge issue and why everyone is still going on about it.

Back in the day the E series i8 forum was on its own and it merged with FF.com so it could reach more members. This was good for both forums at the time.

Was the FF.com admin team in charge of the E series forums like it is now back then?

[Gunns]

Originally Posted by TUFED6

And there you have it, seems to be alot of noise from people that have nothing to do with the club and don't attend any of the events.

- John

Well said John. Way to many keyboard jockey's trying to throw there opinon around, when they don't attend meets, they don't attend drag days, well they attend sweet F/A really.
Everyone please let the AFF Admin team do there job, and the Eseries club Officials work with the admin team to resolve this issues and move forward.

[banarcus]

Hehehe, nothing to do with this discussion but I see there is no more edit button.

Must've been a few people here that found that out the hard way.

I'm not a part of the E series club but still dont mind reading whats in their forum and posting in it. It would be a shame if they parted ways with FFAU but really, this is a tad amusing especially when people here argue on the net and sit in front of monitors.

[Walkinshaw]

This post is as usefull as the one above

[TheSneakiness]

As another outsider, who has read but kept his mouth shut, it's time to open it.

There has to have been a really, really good reason to pull moderator status from EFFalcon, however, has been mentioned before, his status in the club does not have to change.

When will you guys realise that he can still have his current status in the club, the only thing that has happened is that he can't close threads/warn members/edit other members posts anymore.

This is getting really, really old real quick. Like Tibbo said earlier, build a bridge.

For the record, just because I own an A series now, doesn't mean I don't have respect for the E series members. I've never, never thought I was an elitest here, and I'll never ever think that way.

[ilsautomotive]

With the decision about John under the bridge, the only relevant points remaining are those to do with the relationship between AFF and E series. I had forgotten until a moment ago that when we were with old FF, I was very frequently in hot water from the most senior member about technical threads in E series General, which he felt should be in the 'Garage' forum. He also proposed many times that E series General be merged with the Pub, though I was willing to fight this decision to the death, knowing it would basically kill the Club as a social group of its own.

By comparison, AFF has been very smooth sailing as the admin team have respected that discussions about camshafts or manifolds is a big part of 'general chat' for us. This maturity deserves great credit. Things have been allowed to run their natural course and there have no been any dramas - until now - due mainly to the fact that the different groups have avoided interfering with each other. I used to feel a need to defend E series cars when they were mocked in other FF areas, whereas my response today would be to walk away or avoid it in the first place.

So having established peace through separation, what is the next step? Working together more in the future would bring the unity that some wanted on FF whilst retaining the independence of separate groups. I have no doubt we can make big improvements, but the 'elitism' thing is not to be dismissed lightly. I have a response prepared, but because it is getting off-topic I'll make it into a separate thread.

No doubt we will all be putting a big effort into addressing the disunity that has been exposed. The whole thing can be viewed in a positive light in that it has given us new standards to aim for.

[efgiar]

Originally Posted by XA-Coupe

Damned right you are entitled to your opinion. Have we everh edited posts just because of a disagreement?? no... we edit them because they are abusinve or way out of line.

People will think what they will. I have no doubt that John is invaluable to the club, but it's not the club that is the issue.

yeah i have had a run in with deleting threads even tho the thread wasnt improper. non the less i recieved a pm saying i was flaming etc etc, so i just came on presuming my post was going to be deleted, but isnt... :

[dansedgli]

I never realised there was an elitism problem. Can someone show some examples?

Are we sure the elitist thing isnt just a development of some people insecurities about their own cars? I Have owned both an awesome AU and nice EB so I have been a part of AUfalcon and the E series club. I never noticed any kind of elitist activity. There is sometimes some stirring but I havent noticed any seriously negative comments on either part.

I think the whole seperation of clubs has more to do with the age differences rather than elitism. Most E series members are under 21. There are only a few AU owners of that age. I can only think of 2 BA owners in their early 20's. I dont think there is anything wrong with this but different activities appeal to different age groups. Some of the older groups have families and cant attend, the younger guys I imagine are like myself and dont see anything fun about picnic's and dinners etc.

I dunno, Im starting to crap on a bit here.

How many people actually noticed any issues at all before this John controversy began?

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by dansedgli

How many people actually noticed any issues at all before this John controversy began?

Exactly. I think that's why so many people who posted here have kicked up such a stink about it.

Enough out of me though.

[efgiar]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

The only thing that has changed here as far as the E-Series forums go is, John no longer has a EDIT button when he logs on.

then whats the point of removing him if all that it does is that?

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by dansedgli

I never realised there was an elitism problem. Can someone show some examples?

Are we sure the elitist thing isnt just a development of some people insecurities about their own cars? I Have owned both an awesome AU and nice EB so I have been a part of AUfalcon and the E series club. I never noticed any kind of elitist activity. There is sometimes some stirring but I havent noticed any seriously negative comments on either part.

I think the whole seperation of clubs has more to do with the age differences rather than elitism. Most E series members are under 21. There are only a few AU owners of that age. I can only think of 2 BA owners in their early 20's. I dont think there is anything wrong with this but different activities appeal to different age groups. Some of the older groups have families and cant attend, the younger guys I imagine are like myself and dont see anything fun about picnic's and dinners etc.

I dunno, Im starting to crap on a bit here.

How many people actually noticed any issues at all before this John controversy began?

If you havent noticed it Dan, its often because of people like me and other mods. The deleted items area on this forum is full of inter series flame wars, tickford vs fpv wars, clevo vs windsor wars, au vs e series vs b series wars. Sometimes it can get downright abusive.

Its worse when you have friends in many different "camps" as I do, and you have to deal with open warfare between people you both consider friends, fighting over what seems to me, pointless things.

for me personally, I dont understand nor really get involved, AU's are ugly, E series has rust, BA's come standard with broken oil pump gears, X series are held together with a combination of bog and pixie dust, windsors wheeze, clevo's dont oil properly, a focus is a small plastic coffin, fairlanes handle like a cruise liner with all the passengers on one side, Territories cant keep their wheels on, escorts are breadboxes with wheels attached, telstars look like calais' from certain angles, and commodores are driven by bogans.

See? Its easy to get along when you accept simple truths.

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

friends, fighting over what seems to me, pointless things.

for me personally, I dont understand nor really get involved, AU's are ugly, E series has rust, BA's come standard with broken oil pump gears, X series are held together with a combination of bog and pixie dust, windsors wheeze, clevo's dont oil properly, a focus is a small plastic coffin, fairlanes handle like a cruise liner with all the passengers on one side, Territories cant keep their wheels on, escorts are breadboxes with wheels attached, telstars look like calais' from certain angles, and commodores are driven by bogans.

haha its good to see torana's and XP's dont get a mention :P

Well if I havent noticed any of these then you guys must be doing alright cos Im here all day! The only conflict I ever notice in the tickford vs FPV rather the TS50 vs BA debate.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by dansedgli

haha its good to see torana's and XP's dont get a mention :P

Well if I havent noticed any of these then you guys must be doing alright cos Im here all day! The only conflict I ever notice in the tickford vs FPV rather the TS50 vs BA debate.

We both know god drives an SLR 5000... he wouldnt be seen dead in an LJ/LC :P

[dansedgli]

Isnt religion againt AFF policy? :P

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by efgiar

then whats the point of removing him if all that it does is that?

I am going to make this clear again, John is NOT going to be a moderator on the E series forums no matter how much you attempt to drag the discussion down that path.

[KEV EB XR8]

I know nothing on the subject of John, but can see he has a mass input into the club and AFF.

But honestly! As with running any other business, Somebody or many have to make decisions that are likely to please or offend, but they have to make them.

Any position of authority usually ticks off the people that are usually not strong enough to make those hard decisions themselves and feel it nesessary to try and belittle those who can.

As i believe, the moderators in thier duty have no income and devote time to this site for the purposes of controlling "unwanted" behavior on behalf of the owners.

I ,for one am appalled by the remarks made mention to the staff in this debacle as i am sure many others are.

Free speech or not, many should have taken a back seat to posting ...

[stockstandard]

I’ve been away for a while and looks like a lot has happened.

I await to hear the circumstances for the ban (probably not through this thread though by the looks of it). I personally found EFFALCON to be the best moderator on this forum as he understood that a forum was a place where users should be able to freely express opinions instead of locking threads at the first sign of disagreement.

Very disappointing to see him go.

[old_mate]

I'm going to say a bit here too

First of all. These forums would not exist without the admin team. Sure, anyone with a bit of server space can setup a forums, but look at how these forums are presented. Look at the sponsorship. Look at how much goes into planning a raid, or a proper drag day. I bet all the admins here are full time working guys, who really only setup and run this forums as a hobby as well as providing a place for us plebs to do the same thing, come and talk about our hobby.

It's been said around the grounds this place is turning more into ff.com everyday. The former owner of said forum really was an ********, and that one bloke had a massive power trip. While i personally totally disagree with John's removal of moderator, it isnt like the banned him outright (as would have happened by now under lunaticSVT's rule) and have not outlawed his position within the club. Perhaps in future, maybe admin's could think about having a moderation rotation system, whereby after a period (say 6 months) the moderators are rotated around giving the more senior guys a feel for what it is all about.

At the end of the day, this place doesnt fall under freedom of speech rights. It falls under freedom to post rights. You're free to post until you say something that conflicts with the statement the admins of this forums are trying to make, be it a mature enthusiast's site, family orientated site etc etc. No one is forcing anyone to be a part of ff.com.au, there are many other forums around with moderation that is considerably less strict than what happens here. I come here personally for the continually informative and interesting discussion, the benefits of having many sponsors on board etc.

I would also like to thank those admin members that have come here and apologised for their hasty decisions. Not anywhere have i seen this action taken before, nor do i personally think it was a 'must do' for them to keep other people around happy

[russellw]

Closed pending some further developments.

Russ