How Holden Was MURDERED

[FTE217]

Yep Ford was the only US manufacturer not arriving to the White House in private jets with their hands out.
Says it all the politics stink as it always does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Yep Ford was the only US manufacturer not arriving to the White House in private jets with their hands out.
Says it all the politics stink as it always does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ford also had strong incentives to do an in house make over, the government
would have required the Ford family to give up its control of the company.
That was never going to happen.

I think Ford did a little too good of a job advocating that GM and Chrysler be assisted,
those two competitors got all their debts wiped away years ahead of Ford…..

[Sprintey]

Been reflecting on one part of the vid, the part where, without all the transfer pricing bs, it said Holden was consistently profitable from the mid 80s onward (late 80s?). This would make intuitive sense, for they have lots of fans in Australia and made a product that Australians were comfortable with, found useful, and were excited by.

This infers that Holden were profitable through the 90s (when behind the E series), at the turn of the millennium where the VT slayed all, during the 2000s when the fuel price bit; and still profitable during the 2010s even when industry news was all doom and gloom.

The vid also mentions Holden had drawn up small cars and an SUV (a la Territory) of their own design so they picked the market shift and were profitable so if independently owned could have funded these models. Imagine if they were free to export on top of that - the world wants a good RWD and the US lost the plot when they went FWD en masse after the 1970s fuel shock.

It leaves a bitter taste - we're Ford fans here - but imagine if actual profitable and well run business was left to take it's course at Holden, they would still be here in 2025. GM has a lot to answer for.

If you can find and keep a nice VF, it's the only consolation.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It wasn’t like that with GM bail out, there were no recriminations and in fact,
it was more like giving a drunk a wash, a shave and a full wallet to go play.
They didn’t even have to pay back any of the $10 billion given to them in escrow.
And, all the losses left behind with the old bankrupt version of GM could be claimed
as tax deductions by New GM for years after…….zero need to kill off Holden.

In case anyone is wondering, Ford didn’t need a bail out from the US government,
they instead were given access to to low interest Department of Energy loans that were
paid back in full with interest.

Don't forget the GM bondholders who got vaporised in the bailouts and 'Government Motors' stage...

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Been reflecting on one part of the vid, the part where, without all the transfer pricing bs, it said Holden was consistently profitable from the mid 80s onward (late 80s?). This would make intuitive sense, for they have lots of fans in Australia and made a product that Australians were comfortable with, found useful, and were excited by.

Early to mid 80's. Holdens best years with plenty of useful cars and commercials available.

WB Statesman, WB utes, PV's and tonners. Gemini wagon and vans. Isuzu trucks being part of GMH at the time.

Both UK Bedford and US Chev (heavy) lines had just been dropped by then.

The back lash against the smaller Commodores was settling down and plenty waiting in antisipation of the new large VN for 88'

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Don't forget the GM bondholders who got vaporised in the bailouts and 'Government Motors' stage...

That's the part of the saga GM would prefer be left out of the recount

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Don't forget the GM bondholders who got vaporised in the bailouts and 'Government Motors' stage...

Yes, a lot of pension plans were wiped out exactly because the fund managers could not believe
that the mighty GM would go bankrupt and its stock go to zero…..millions of people were wiped out.
Where was the government assistance for them….

[jpd80]

Another interesting YouTube that presents evidence that development of the 308 was halted in 1975
stopping the evolution of the 308 until well into the 1980s…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oriHBdR3CjQ&t=610s


I think some of this may be BS because it leaves out the 304 even port EFI engines up to 1999
Maybe I’m being fooled by AI generated crap?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Another interesting YouTube that presents evidence that development of the 308 was halted in 1975
stopping the evolution of the 308 until well into the 1980s…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oriHBdR3CjQ&t=610s


I think some of this may be BS because it leaves out the 304 even port EFI engines up to 1999
Maybe I’m being fooled by AI generated crap?

That's a good trick, maybe development but I had a 1978 cast 308 in a HZ Premier.

[Syndrome]

Holden fans

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

That's a good trick, maybe development but I had a 1978 cast 308 in a HZ Premier.

Watch the YouTube.
The 1975 test mules sent to USA had even port cylinder heads, roller lifters and EFI
Reports are that they were producing up to 380 hp and meeting all leaded fuel exhaust
emissions regulations of the time (ADR27A and B)

The GM heads went ape sh** and said stop to everything….

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Watch the YouTube.
The 1975 test mules sent to USA had even port cylinder heads, roller lifters and EFI
Reports are that they were producing up to 380 hp and meeting all leaded fuel exhaust
emissions regulations of the time (ADR27A and B)

Don't need to watch anything, I owned one (1978 308) in 1980 and another 308 78' van in 1982.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Watch the YouTube.
The 1975 test mules sent to USA had even port cylinder heads, roller lifters and EFI
Reports are that they were producing up to 380 hp and meeting all leaded fuel exhaust
emissions regulations of the time (ADR27A and B)

The GM heads went ape sh** and said stop to everything….

I see what you are on about re. factory modifying one but so what they still built and sold them in new cars all through HX HZ and WB era's all 27A equipped.

There was always plenty of aftermarket go fast stuff made for them at the time.

As far as I'm concerned they murdered Holden introducing the Commodore.

[jpd80]

Never mind

[jpd80]

Never mind….

[lra]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, a lot of pension plans were wiped out exactly because the fund managers could not believe
that the mighty GM would go bankrupt and its stock go to zero…..millions of people were wiped out.
Where was the government assistance for them….

Good point.
GM bean counters calculated that they couldn'd afford the future pensions benefits, it would send them broke down the track.
So, bankrupt GM, and start again as a new GM, but it took them 10 years to decide on a new logo, from 'GM' to 'gm'. Brilliant.
Somewhat like Patrick Stevedoring and Ansett did to their employees, only much, much worse.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Don't need to watch anything, I owned one (1978 308) in 1980 and another 308 78' van in 1982.

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I see what you are on about re. factory modifying one but so what they still built and sold them in new cars all through HX HZ and WB era's all 27A equipped.

There was always plenty of aftermarket go fast stuff made for them at the time.

As far as I'm concerned they murdered Holden introducing the Commodore.

I think what jpd80 was getting at was the GM head office in Detroit ordered a halt to further refinement of the Holden V8. So, while they continued to make them, Holden were not allowed to make it better (more power, more economy).

From memory, wasn't the V8 supposed to end in 1986 when unleaded fuel arrived, but the public uproar meant Holden had to limp it through till the VN, where the fuel injected 5.0 engine appeared. I wonder at this point if that VN spec 5.0 could have appeared much earlier if GM allowed it.

Not that I don't appreciate the Holden V8's existence, but at one point in the 60's and 70's, most divisions of GM had their own V8 engine design. Which to me is completely idiotic when you consider how much money was wasted doing that, especially considering they were all a much of a muchness. I guess the eventual downfall of GM in 2000's is a direct result of that same blind faith mentality of the GM decision makers. Granted, by 2008 they had consolidated, but so much money was wasted on trivial pursuits.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

As far as I'm concerned they murdered Holden introducing the Commodore.

This was an important change-of-state for Holden. Many families switched over to the bigger Falcon.


And on the GM bondholders/stockholders in 2008, yes the stockholders copped it but the story of the bondholders was a little different and certainly a raw deal in the restructuring:

https://www.ft.com/content/7c6e56e4-...e-00144feabdc0

[Sprintey]

Continuing on the theme (which I am passionate about), in this link

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/202...-biggest-loss/

there's a comment by someone called 'Skepticviewer' who grew up in the factory work environment, and I'll quote:

"How much less manufacturing can Australia do – according to a report on the open borders ABC, there are only 410 tool makers and pattern makers under 40 in Australia. For those that don’t know my father was a manager toolmaker and production engineer in a number of factories both here and NZ , I have been in around factories since 6 yo. In one factory producing appliances they employed 8 to 10 tool making staff. Larger factories will have up to 40 or more sometimes split between permanent and contractors used for model changes or retooling. One factory 40 toolmaking staff – consider 410 nation wide in Australia. "

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Continuing on the theme (which I am passionate about), in this link

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/202...-biggest-loss/

there's a comment by someone called 'Skepticviewer' who grew up in the factory work environment, and I'll quote:

"How much less manufacturing can Australia do – according to a report on the open borders ABC, there are only 410 tool makers and pattern makers under 40 in Australia. For those that don’t know my father was a manager toolmaker and production engineer in a number of factories both here and NZ , I have been in around factories since 6 yo. In one factory producing appliances they employed 8 to 10 tool making staff. Larger factories will have up to 40 or more sometimes split between permanent and contractors used for model changes or retooling. One factory 40 toolmaking staff – consider 410 nation wide in Australia. "

Not just manufacturing parts, cars, tools etc. No one seems to know how to build houses properly. anymore looking at half the junk being erected in estates.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

This was an important change-of-state for Holden. Many families switched over to the bigger Falcon.

Not really, by the mid-70s Holden & Falcon were almost equal in sales, XB slightly outsold HJ, XC slightly outsold HX, then HZ was released & it outsold the late XC, Early Commodore outsold XD, it was looking very rosy. But when the fuel price went down in 1980/81 many went back to larger cars & the Commodore went out of favour. How do you predict that ?

XE & XF then went on the outsell the Commodore until the late 80s, by which time VK/VL had gained traction & the VN then went on to dominate over the "underdone" EA.

Dr Terry

[EBSXR6]

My mate was a Pattern Maker did his apprenticeship late 1970s - early 1980s.
He was the Apprentice of the year for a large government department.
After a few years he saw the writing on the wall and the Department trained him in I.T.
He said it is a tradegy the skills that have been lost. During his apprenticeship while at
Trade School, they did plant tours Vickers Ruwolt impressed him.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Not really, by the mid-70s Holden & Falcon were almost equal in sales, XB slightly outsold HJ, XC slightly outsold HX, then HZ was released & it outsold the late XC, Early Commodore outsold XD, it was looking very rosy. But when the fuel price went down in 1980/81 many went back to larger cars & the Commodore went out of favour. How do you predict that ?

XE & XF then went on the outsell the Commodore until the late 80s, by which time VK/VL had gained traction & the VN then went on to dominate over the "underdone" EA.

Dr Terry

My ol man after having every Holden model station wagon from EK to HZ was one of those people who flatly refused to buy one of those tiny VB Commodore's (his words) and for the first time in our family we had a XD Fairmont Ghia sedan.

As a kid who was with him on every new inspection and car pick up I can remember all the backlash Holden (Muirs, Ryde) copped over that small replacement. For loyal Holden owners at the time it really was a big deal.

The Fairmont still had enough room in the boot to carry all of his quoting fabric samples as he was an upholsterer (Sprintley another endangered trade)

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Not really, by the mid-70s Holden & Falcon were almost equal in sales, XB slightly outsold HJ, XC slightly outsold HX, then HZ was released & it outsold the late XC, Early Commodore outsold XD, it was looking very rosy. But when the fuel price went down in 1980/81 many went back to larger cars & the Commodore went out of favour. How do you predict that ?

XE & XF then went on the outsell the Commodore until the late 80s, by which time VK/VL had gained traction & the VN then went on to dominate over the "underdone" EA.

Dr Terry

I believe during the early days of Commodore the buyers believed the smaller car would be better on Fuel than the Falcon but as time went on people found out that their was no significant difference. Ford also did a lot of changes to the 6 Cylinders engines, Alloy Head, Weber Carburettor and EFI.
Holden seemed to go down the gimmick path until the VK 6 got an EFI option.
People with larger families appreciated the extra room in the Falcon.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

No one seems to know how to build houses properly. anymore looking at half the junk being erected in estates.

They know how, they just don't need to, because nobody cares enough to do anything about it. The certifiers who are supposed to be independent and engaged by the buyer (not the builder), almost always come recommended by the builder so as not to 'slow down the process'. They rubber-stamp everything because they dont want to lose the work. The building commissions are useless. Our last build, builder went bust after having their license suspended. But it was only suspended after they had 40+ cases against them in Fair Trading, and all of them because of failure to perform rectification work ordered by Fair Trading. How does a building commission let it get this far? It's far from an isolated case. No builder should be allowed to take on new work while any orders against them remain outstanding. But that's the thing in this country, the bureaucracy is only there to generate busy work to keep its staff employed, not to actually keep anyone accountable..... oh, and my suspended builder, Fair Trading came onto the estate and ordered a shutdown after seeing a range of non-compliances. But did they investigate any of the trades that did that non-compliant work? .......

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by b0son

They know how, they just don't need to, because nobody cares enough to do anything about it. The certifiers who are supposed to be independent and engaged by the buyer (not the builder), almost always come recommended by the builder so as not to 'slow down the process'. They rubber-stamp everything because they dont want to lose the work. The building commissions are useless. Our last build, builder went bust after having their license suspended. But it was only suspended after they had 40+ cases against them in Fair Trading, and all of them because of failure to perform rectification work ordered by Fair Trading. How does a building commission let it get this far? It's far from an isolated case. No builder should be allowed to take on new work while any orders against them remain outstanding. But that's the thing in this country, the bureaucracy is only there to generate busy work to keep its staff employed, not to actually keep anyone accountable..... oh, and my suspended builder, Fair Trading came onto the estate and ordered a shutdown after seeing a range of non-compliances. But did they investigate any of the trades that did that non-compliant work? .......

Your story is but the tip of the iceberg b0son, but that's for another thread

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

there's a comment by someone called 'Skepticviewer' who grew up in the factory work environment, and I'll quote:

But that could just be a job title issue to a degree. While there are fewer people doing the traditional toolmaking apprenticeship, there are plenty of engineering workplaces with many staff capable of CNC machining.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I think what jpd80 was getting at was the GM head office in Detroit ordered a halt to further refinement of the Holden V8. So, while they continued to make them, Holden were not allowed to make it better (more power, more economy).

From memory, wasn't the V8 supposed to end in 1986 when unleaded fuel arrived, but the public uproar meant Holden had to limp it through till the VN, where the fuel injected 5.0 engine appeared. I wonder at this point if that VN spec 5.0 could have appeared much earlier if GM allowed it.

Not that I don't appreciate the Holden V8's existence, but at one point in the 60's and 70's, most divisions of GM had their own V8 engine design. Which to me is completely idiotic when you consider how much money was wasted doing that, especially considering they were all a much of a muchness. I guess the eventual downfall of GM in 2000's is a direct result of that same blind faith mentality of the GM decision makers. Granted, by 2008 they had consolidated, but so much money was wasted on trivial pursuits.

For the different GM divisions, different engines and bodies were both necessary and justified back when GM had a massive share of the US market.

Not to be critical here as there very good reasons to go to corporate engines
but that money savings combined with corporate platforms relegated a lot of
GM’s brands to little more than trim levels of a very similar vehicle under another
another GM brand. Once all that caught up with a generational change in buyers
it was clear that a gigantic GM was becoming less and less profitable

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

My ol man after having every Holden model station wagon from EK to HZ was one of those people who flatly refused to buy one of those tiny VB Commodore's (his words) and for the first time in our family we had a XD Fairmont Ghia sedan.

As a kid who was with him on every new inspection and car pick up I can remember all the backlash Holden (Muirs, Ryde) copped over that small replacement. For loyal Holden owners at the time it really was a big deal.

The Fairmont still had enough room in the boot to carry all of his quoting fabric samples as he was an upholsterer (Sprintley another endangered trade)

Exactly what happened to us. Mum's family always had Holdens and when she returned (with us! and Dad) from Europe I remember the back seat of the XD wagon as one of my first car memories here. My wife's family who were farmers switched from FJ through to HZs to XD-E-F and then EA EB AU... Many sales there...

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by b0son

But that could just be a job title issue to a degree. While there are fewer people doing the traditional toolmaking apprenticeship, there are plenty of engineering workplaces with many staff capable of CNC machining.

Good point, learned CNC over covid as my lockdown project. It's toolmaking to an extent, sort of but not. My impressions of toolmaking are all the dies and the templates and individual hand tools - a bit like surfboard handshaping. Out of interest in a not-insignificant amount of jobs it is quicker to do by hand if accurate tools are there. Both seem to use problem solving quite a bit in the 3d space. Hopefully there's a lot of CNC machinists out there in Oz...